If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Discuss the MVC hoops season here.

Choose 2 (you may change your vote later)

Murray State
66
46%
Oral Roberts
13
9%
Northern Kentucky
27
19%
North Dakota State
8
6%
South Dakota State
6
4%
South Dakota
4
3%
Other (please comment)
20
14%
 
Total votes : 144

Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby musiccitybulldog » August 12th, 2017, 7:53 am

I would think the Valley would go after teams like Morehead State and Austin Peay before ORU.
They both have reasonable NCAA records in recent times.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby VUGrad1314 » August 12th, 2017, 1:08 pm

musiccitybulldog wrote:I would think the Valley would go after teams like Morehead State and Austin Peay before ORU.
They both have reasonable NCAA records in recent times.


ORU is not an appealing addition to the MVC at this time but there is at least a reasonable argument one could make for them, particularly if the rumors of them requiring faith tests for athletes aren't true or they agree to stop doing that. There is,to my mind, no such argument that can be made for any OVC school outside of Murray State and Belmont. There is almost zero chance those additions end up doing anything for the conference in the short or long term. I would rather see if UIC or UWM can get their act together or roll the dice on NKU being legit, or add schools like Green Bay and UDM than APSU or Morehead State. Leave the Horizon League to consider such schools, we in the MVC need to set our sights much higher than this.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby Jsnhbe1Birds » August 12th, 2017, 1:39 pm

VUGrad1314 wrote:
musiccitybulldog wrote:I would think the Valley would go after teams like Morehead State and Austin Peay before ORU.
They both have reasonable NCAA records in recent times.


ORU is not an appealing addition to the MVC at this time but there is at least a reasonable argument one could make for them, particularly if the rumors of them requiring faith tests for athletes aren't true or they agree to stop doing that. There is,to my mind, no such argument that can be made for any OVC school outside of Murray State and Belmont. There is almost zero chance those additions end up doing anything for the conference in the short or long term. I would rather see if UIC or UWM can get their act together or roll the dice on NKU being legit, or add schools like Green Bay and UDM than APSU or Morehead State. Leave the Horizon League to consider such schools, we in the MVC need to set our sights much higher than this.


Agreed 100%. If the MVC cant pull two of St. Louis, Murray State, Grand Canyon, New Mexico State, North Dakota State, or South Dakota State then just stay at 10.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby mvfcfan » August 12th, 2017, 9:02 pm

If I had to choose from that list NDSU and SDSU would be my top two picks and it's not even close. They've both done more than enough to prove that they belong in the MVC for all sports. It would also be a gateway for UND and USD to eventually get added which I am in favor of.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby mvfcfan » August 13th, 2017, 1:33 pm

MOST wrote: ORU at Tulsa extends the MVC footprint and increase everybody but the BEARs travel costs.


I was thinking about this and I believe that this statement is technically not really correct. It is a 2.5 - 3 hour bus ride from Springfield to Tulsa, which is a lot shorter than the 4.5 - 5 hour ride from Springfield to Carbondale. Having MSU and ORU as travel partners; and having SIU and Murray State as travel partners actually saves everyone money on travel costs.

Also from my understanding since we would most likely still be playing 18 conference games there would be at least one set of travel partners you would not travel to in a season.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby MOST » August 13th, 2017, 7:40 pm

mvfcfan wrote:
MOST wrote: ORU at Tulsa extends the MVC footprint and increase everybody but the BEARs travel costs.


I was thinking about this and I believe that this statement is technically not really correct. It is a 2.5 - 3 hour bus ride from Springfield to Tulsa, which is a lot shorter than the 4.5 - 5 hour ride from Springfield to Carbondale. Having MSU and ORU as travel partners; and having SIU and Murray State as travel partners actually saves everyone money on travel costs.

Also from my understanding since we would most likely still be playing 18 conference games there would be at least one set of travel partners you would not travel to in a season.


If Tulsa is 2.5 to 3 hours west of Springfield, how can it not increase every bodies travel costs? Per your example, SIU has to travel 4.5 -5 hours to Springfield and then another 2.5-3 hours to Tulsa. Same same for every body---plus 2.5-3 hours beyond Springfield. Mileage equals dollars. Travel partners be damned.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby mvfcfan » August 14th, 2017, 10:43 am

I'm not sure you get my point. It is slightly over 4 and a half hours from the nearest MVC school to Missouri State. It is slightly over 2 and a half hours from Missouri State to Oral Roberts. If teams are already traveling to Missouri State, what is another 2 and a half hours west?

We have to remember that this past season teams were having to travel over 4 and a half hours west to Wichita State. Also having Missouri State on an island all alone seems kind of silly to me when you could add someone halfway reasonable that is only 2 and a half hours away.

The big argument for not adding Murray State this last time around was because Missouri State would not have a travel partner. Obviously SIU and Murray State would be travel partners. Also if we can't afford to go 2 and a half hours west of Springfield then we should probably all drop to D2. I can see the travel arguments for not adding the Dakota schools and NMST/GCU, but Tulsa is not that far away.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby Jsnhbe1Birds » August 14th, 2017, 12:25 pm

mvfcfan wrote:I'm not sure you get my point. It is slightly over 4 and a half hours from the nearest MVC school to Missouri State. It is slightly over 2 and a half hours from Missouri State to Oral Roberts. If teams are already traveling to Missouri State, what is another 2 and a half hours west?

We have to remember that this past season teams were having to travel over 4 and a half hours west to Wichita State. Also having Missouri State on an island all alone seems kind of silly to me when you could add someone halfway reasonable that is only 2 and a half hours away.

The big argument for not adding Murray State this last time around was because Missouri State would not have a travel partner. Obviously SIU and Murray State would be travel partners. Also if we can't afford to go 2 and a half hours west of Springfield then we should probably all drop to D2. I can see the travel arguments for not adding the Dakota schools and NMST/GCU, but Tulsa is not that far away.


SIU and Missouri state as travel partners is feasible if they don't add anyone out west. SIU to missouri state is only 45 minutes further than missouri state was to wichita when they were travel partners.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby mvfcfan » August 16th, 2017, 11:30 am

Oral Roberts and Missouri State are also feasible as travel partners if Murray State and Southern Illinois are travel partners. I think everyone is forgetting that there is one set of travel partners you would not travel to in a particular season. You also have to consider that 2 and a half hours is not that far to travel. Let's add $500 to the travel budget. I bet that will break all of our schools. But then half of the people on here think we should add NMST and GCU. I guess travel only matters when you don't like a school based on personal reasons and not athletic reasons.

Using that logic, how does Northern Kentucky not add travel costs for everyone? They are 3 hours from Indiana State which would be their travel partner. They also make more travel for UNI and Missouri State because we'd be extending the conference too far east. Murray State is 2 hours south of SIU. Maybe they aren't that good of an add. I'd hate to have to go any farther south. :roll:

Point is if we add more teams we are going to have to add teams that are a 2-3 hours farther than any certain team. I mean I guess we could add any of the following and not add travel: Western Illinois, Eastern Illinois, UIC, Chicago State. But I don't think there are too many who would be to excited about any of those schools.

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I think Murray State is the best #11 and as far as a #12 is concerned I do think that ORU and NKU are the best #12 options. I wouldn't be particularly be disappointed in either pick. I like NDSU and SDSU, but I don't see how that would work out with football, the UXD schools, etc. NKU is actually more travel friendly for my school (INST) than Murray State. The big things NKU has going against them is that they are new to D1 and that they are a public school. The three things that ORU has going for them is their close proximity to MSU, past basketball success, and baseball.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby mvfcfan » August 16th, 2017, 11:55 am

I think I should clarify this a little more. I just don't think there would be this much excitement about NKU had they not of made the NCAA tournament. Not to take anything away from them, but their HL tournament run was not that impressive. They beat a 5 seed, a 9 seed, and a 10 seed in that order.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hori ... Tournament

The Horizon League is not the same conference it was a few years ago. They are like the MVC in a way. The fact is that we are not the same conference without WSU and Creighton, just as the HL is not the same conference as it once was without Butler and Valpo. While Northern Kentucky could end up being a great add they are a somewhat risky add.

Omaha was two points away from winning the Summit League and they play in a pretty decent arena. I'm just curious as to if they were to win that game if there would be as much excitement around them as there is NKU. UNO got to the championship game by beating a 6 seed and a 7 seed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Summ ... Tournament

I think Oral Roberts is a better add overall than NKU, because of their past success and because of baseball (18 tournament appearances since 1998). The fact that they are private and close to MSU is also a big selling point. Their basketball team this past season was garbage, but everyone has bad years. They've had big wins and good seasons; and I think they fit is perfectly with the rest of the MVC.

I understand people don't like ORU because of some of their beliefs, but this is a sports conference, not a political show. The Southland Conference had no problem taking them under their wing and the Summit League had no problem taking them back. I don't see why it would be any different with the MVC. For instance the WCC had no problem taking BYU and they also have some beliefs that not everyone agrees with.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby rally » August 16th, 2017, 1:16 pm

mvfcfan wrote:I think I should clarify this a little more. I just don't think there would be this much excitement about NKU had they not of made the NCAA tournament. Not to take anything away from them, but their HL tournament run was not that impressive. They beat a 5 seed, a 9 seed, and a 10 seed in that order.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hori ... Tournament

The Horizon League is not the same conference it was a few years ago. They are like the MVC in a way. The fact is that we are not the same conference without WSU and Creighton, just as the HL is not the same conference as it once was without Butler and Valpo. While Northern Kentucky could end up being a great add they are a somewhat risky add.

Omaha was two points away from winning the Summit League and they play in a pretty decent arena. I'm just curious as to if they were to win that game if there would be as much excitement around them as there is NKU. UNO got to the championship game by beating a 6 seed and a 7 seed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Summ ... Tournament

I think Oral Roberts is a better add overall than NKU, because of their past success and because of baseball (18 tournament appearances since 1998). The fact that they are private and close to MSU is also a big selling point. Their basketball team this past season was garbage, but everyone has bad years. They've had big wins and good seasons; and I think they fit is perfectly with the rest of the MVC.

I understand people don't like ORU because of some of their beliefs, but this is a sports conference, not a political show. The Southland Conference had no problem taking them under their wing and the Summit League had no problem taking them back. I don't see why it would be any different with the MVC. For instance the WCC had no problem taking BYU and they also have some beliefs that not everyone agrees with.


Potential. As mentioned before, NKU has great facilities and is located in hotbed for college hoops. Making the NCAA tourney in their first year eligible isn't what draws me to them, but it does make me a little more optimistic on reaching their potential. But that's really it.

The Valley really doesn't have any great options. If we expand past 10, you want someone who can elevate the conference, not just blend in. Most of the schools listed have just been mediocre and I don't expect that to all of sudden just change. ORU has been to 5 NCAA tournaments in 40+ years as a D1 program. I really don't see them doing much more than blending in. At this level, expansion is all about men's basketball and getting multiple bids. That's where the money can be made. Success in non-revenue sports matter very little, if at all.

Currently, I only see Murray State as someone worth expanding the conference. I'd take them as a #11 team and call it a day. But if you want to pick #12 today, I picking a program with upside and right now that would be NKU.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby BEARZ77 » August 16th, 2017, 3:21 pm

I don't understand the thinking that any additions have to do with being able to get multiple NCAA Tourney bids. Nice thought, but just not reality based. There will be some seasons we might be in position to get a 2nd team in, but that will have nothing to do with the composition of the conference and everything to do about the individual scheduling of that team. It would have to be a year where that team had had the luck of the draw to get a couple quality games in a Tourney at the same time they had a couple quality buy games , and then was good enough to win several of those as well as being top 2-3 in conference. That's what you've seen with St Mary's as a second bid to Gonzaga in an otherwise poor conference.

Lets be clear, we had WSU in conference last year, and ISUr matched them in conference. But it didn't get a second bid; who could we possibly add that would influence a second bid if WSU couldn't. Point is, it has nothing to do with that given the current scheduling and dynamics at play in college basketball. There is no one we can add that would increase the numbers of top 50 games available to individual schools year in and out, and that is essentially the deciding factor in at -large bids. If you can get 4-5 of those games, win 3-4 of them, have a representative schedule otherwise, and win the majority of non con and conference games against it, you'll have a chance.

The power conferences have developed a brilliant and almost perfect system for monopolizing at -large bids by making the primary positive deciding criteria[ top 50/top 100 wins] and the negative influencing one[ bottom 150/bottom 200 losses] ones which are heavily skewed in their favor. They get anywhere from 8-16 of the positive contributors automatically in their conference schedules with half being home games. They almost never have to play any of the negative influencing games except at home if they chose . Except for tournaments, they control mid majors access to the positive factors for the most part, and most of our access is road or neutral games, while by normal conference schedules we will have 4-5 of the negative games on the road as well as a couple in the non con. It appears objective because the criteria is measureable and specific, but of course the access issue is severely skewed.

Anyway, that's why I just find the thought about a 12th addition having anything to do with multiple bids not really feasible. One might say that if we collectively raised the bar in our non -con scheduling so that more Valley teams had a chance of being top 100 teams and fewer sub 200 level teams then we would have more positive influencing games/ less negative etc.; but that ignores the fact we can't get the teams necessary to play us consistently and almost never at home, so the system will always be severely skewed as long as those are the factors used in decision making. RPI which is not really used except to assign a value for placement anymore, measured a teams performance against an entire schedule and that schedules net worth; this system measures potential as evidenced in specific games . Access to the positive factors and avoidance of the negative is everything. And we have little of the one and too much of the other.
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