Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Discuss the MVC hoops season here.

Choose two: Who do you think the MVC should add?

Murray State
49
49%
Northern Kentucky
19
19%
UW-Milwaukee
6
6%
Oakland
0
No votes
South Dakota State
3
3%
Southeast Missouri State
0
No votes
Belmont
11
11%
Grand Canyon
3
3%
UT-Arlington
5
5%
Denver
4
4%
 
Total votes : 100

Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby mvfcfan » January 10th, 2018, 6:09 pm

My question is if SDSU would even accept a bid to the MVC. Would they leave the other Dakota schools behind and would they leave the Summit Tournament behind? Most of their fans on their message board want to stay in the Summit League. They have the Belmont attitude of being the big fish in a little pond (which I actually understand that logic to a point).

Their fan support in men's basketball isn't anything spectacular either. While they have an active message board unlike NKU, their attendance last season is only 2300 per game compared to NKU who was at 2800 per game. Compare the arenas, the budgets, the locations of the schools, the markets, etc, and it seems like NKU is probably the better add honestly. And I hate saying that because I actually really like the Dakota schools.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby bufan741777 » January 10th, 2018, 6:40 pm

mvfcfan wrote:My question is if SDSU would even accept a bid to the MVC. Would they leave the other Dakota schools behind and would they leave the Summit Tournament behind? Most of their fans on their message board want to stay in the Summit League. They have the Belmont attitude of being the big fish in a little pond (which I actually understand that logic to a point).

Their fan support in men's basketball isn't anything spectacular either. While they have an active message board unlike NKU, their attendance last season is only 2300 per game compared to NKU who was at 2800 per game. Compare the arenas, the budgets, the locations of the schools, the markets, etc, and it seems like NKU is probably the better add honestly. And I hate saying that because I actually really like the Dakota schools.


Exactly, why change to the Valley where their school won't look like the top school every season? They are not good enough to win tournament games so they would rather find success in winning the Summit and making the tournament regularly. That is something that they cannot do in the Valley. The Valley would be a big step up but their program wouldn't seem as successful when you have up and down years like teams should.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby VUGrad1314 » January 10th, 2018, 11:38 pm

https://www.racerfans.com/board/viewtop ... a&start=20

Racer fans seem ready to join the MVC if and when an invite comes. One person in the linked thread has repeatedly stated that he believes their invite will come this month. That would be a little surprising to me since I find it hard to believe that anything would come out before the expansion committee meets in March. In any case if this guy is right, and Murray State's invite is coming soon, that means one of two things:

1. The MVC has reversed course and will accept an 11 team model. (unlikely) or
2. The MVC has found a suitable 12th member. Who could it be? My guess is it's either Belmont NKU or Milwaukee

Also not that I think they're a candidate, I'm just sharing this because I find it very surprising given how horribly their season started, but Oral Roberts KenPom rating has climbed all the way to #188. Seems they may have made a solid hire this offseason and are moving in the right direction as a program.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby mvfcfan » January 12th, 2018, 11:33 pm

The MVC needs to officially invite Murray State as soon as their basketball season is over, that way they can for sure come in during the 18-19 season. If they are invited in late March it gives everyone in the MVFC a couple of months of extra notice that Murray State is coming in and that the schedules are going to be updated. If they invite the #12 school in May or June then so be it. If they invite Murray State early on it will force them to take action to find another school to invite.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby MissouriValleyUnite » January 13th, 2018, 3:38 am

The jacksfan who brought up Wright St made a great point:
- 66 RPI in Year 2 under Nagy (likely there for long haul)
- On track for 9th 20-win season in 12 years (1 was 19 wins)
- Best fan base in the Horizon

MVC needs to take a lot longer look at the Raiders.

My Plan A would be NKU and if they decline then Plan B Wright St. I trust WSU to be reliable - I don’t trust UWM.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby Mikovio » January 13th, 2018, 10:07 am

I'd rather the Valley get a toehold in Wisconsin where there's

UW
Marquette
UW-GB

instead of Ohio where there's

OSU
Dayton
Xavier
Cincinnati
Miami (OH)
Ohio
Toledo
Bowling Green
Akron
Kent State
Cleveland State
Youngstown
... and I'm probably forgetting a couple.

Establishing a presence in Ohio is a lost cause. No Ohio kids are going to consider MVC schools because we added an Ohio school that's 10th on the state's totem pole.

UWM has more students, more money, larger market, more NCAA appearances and wins than Wright State. Nagy was probably a great hire away from SDSU but where does this assurance that he's there for the "long haul" come from? They're not that big of a fish. But if he does leave they might just hire the next up and comer from the Dakota grouping. UWM is as big of a fish if not bigger.

I just don't want to see the Valley take the midmajor du jour. With all due respect, that's how we got Evansville and passed on Butler. Coaches come and go. ADs come and go. You need to look at resources, investment, institutional commitment. The teams that have those are the best bets long term. Always have been. Wichita is exhibit A.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby mule » January 13th, 2018, 1:06 pm

Mikovio wrote:
I just don't want to see the Valley take the midmajor du jour. With all due respect, that's how we got Evansville and passed on Butler.

I can agree with the rest of your post being sound and reasonable. On this point you don't know wtf you are talking about. So, here is a little history of why Evansville was chose over Butler.
"The Missouri Valley Conference office and most presidents of MVC schools began courting UE, primarily because Evansville would enhance men's basketball in the conference.

Not everyone was excited about the Aces joining the Valley. The MVC men's basketball coaches took a straw vote and were unanimous in their opinion that Evansville should not be added. The coaches were not excited about competing with one more strong program for a conference championship.

By the summer of 1993, it was clear that most in the MVC hierarchy wanted Evansville, and the feeling became mutual. The MVC was the most competitive league on a national scale among UE's options, and included longtime region rivals Indiana State and -S,outhern Illinois. Also, men's basketball had always been the MVC's foundation, just as it was at Evansville. The one major negative was cost. Competing in the MVC would require additional funding in many sports if UE expected to compete with higher budget state schools such as Illinois State and Wichita State. Additional travel expenses would also be impossible to avoid, especially compared to a 'bus league' such as the OVC.

On November 4, 1993, Evansville was voted into the MVC as the 11th member, joining Bradley, Creighton, Drake, Illinois State, Indiana State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, Southwest Missouri, Tulsa and Wichita State. Evansville officially began competing in the new league in the fall of 1994. Evansville needed only four years to win conference team championships in men's and women's basketball, and men's and women's soccer, and its first softball title came in 2000."


Butler and UE both competed in the same conference (The Midwestern Collegiate Conference) from 1977 to 1993. From 1990-1993, UE's conference record was 9-6, 15-1, 11-2, and 13-4 while Butler's was 2-12, 10-4, 7-3, and 6-8. During those years UE's attendance per game averaged 10,784, 10,198, 11,740, and 10,230. Butler had the largest and most historic basketball arena in the state of Indiana in Hinkle Fieldhouse, but it was 61 years old in 1989 before it got it's first renovation. Nothing about Butler and everything about UE screamed out to the MVC.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby rally » January 13th, 2018, 1:55 pm

Mikovio wrote:I'd rather the Valley get a toehold in Wisconsin where there's

UW
Marquette
UW-GB

instead of Ohio where there's

OSU
Dayton
Xavier
Cincinnati
Miami (OH)
Ohio
Toledo
Bowling Green
Akron
Kent State
Cleveland State
Youngstown
... and I'm probably forgetting a couple.

Establishing a presence in Ohio is a lost cause. No Ohio kids are going to consider MVC schools because we added an Ohio school that's 10th on the state's totem pole.

UWM has more students, more money, larger market, more NCAA appearances and wins than Wright State. Nagy was probably a great hire away from SDSU but where does this assurance that he's there for the "long haul" come from? They're not that big of a fish. But if he does leave they might just hire the next up and comer from the Dakota grouping. UWM is as big of a fish if not bigger.

I just don't want to see the Valley take the midmajor du jour. With all due respect, that's how we got Evansville and passed on Butler. Coaches come and go. ADs come and go. You need to look at resources, investment, institutional commitment. The teams that have those are the best bets long term. Always have been. Wichita is exhibit A.


I think you also need to consider which school benefits more from joining the Valley.

Currently, I don't disagree that Wright State gets lost in there with the MAC and other Horizon schools. Move them to the Valley? I could see that putting them ahead of the MAC/Horizon schools in terms of perception. I also think NKU would realize the same benefit, which is why I would have them ahead of WSU.

With UWM, they are already #3 or #4 in Wisconsin. Moving them to the Valley really only solidifies them at #3 depending on who you currently view them UWGB.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby Drakey » January 13th, 2018, 10:23 pm

mule wrote:
Mikovio wrote:
I just don't want to see the Valley take the midmajor du jour. With all due respect, that's how we got Evansville and passed on Butler.

I can agree with the rest of your post being sound and reasonable. On this point you don't know wtf you are talking about. So, here is a little history of why Evansville was chose over Butler.
"The Missouri Valley Conference office and most presidents of MVC schools began courting UE, primarily because Evansville would enhance men's basketball in the conference.

Not everyone was excited about the Aces joining the Valley. The MVC men's basketball coaches took a straw vote and were unanimous in their opinion that Evansville should not be added. The coaches were not excited about competing with one more strong program for a conference championship.

By the summer of 1993, it was clear that most in the MVC hierarchy wanted Evansville, and the feeling became mutual. The MVC was the most competitive league on a national scale among UE's options, and included longtime region rivals Indiana State and -S,outhern Illinois. Also, men's basketball had always been the MVC's foundation, just as it was at Evansville. The one major negative was cost. Competing in the MVC would require additional funding in many sports if UE expected to compete with higher budget state schools such as Illinois State and Wichita State. Additional travel expenses would also be impossible to avoid, especially compared to a 'bus league' such as the OVC.

On November 4, 1993, Evansville was voted into the MVC as the 11th member, joining Bradley, Creighton, Drake, Illinois State, Indiana State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, Southwest Missouri, Tulsa and Wichita State. Evansville officially began competing in the new league in the fall of 1994. Evansville needed only four years to win conference team championships in men's and women's basketball, and men's and women's soccer, and its first softball title came in 2000."


Butler and UE both competed in the same conference (The Midwestern Collegiate Conference) from 1977 to 1993. From 1990-1993, UE's conference record was 9-6, 15-1, 11-2, and 13-4 while Butler's was 2-12, 10-4, 7-3, and 6-8. During those years UE's attendance per game averaged 10,784, 10,198, 11,740, and 10,230. Butler had the largest and most historic basketball arena in the state of Indiana in Hinkle Fieldhouse, but it was 61 years old in 1989 before it got it's first renovation. Nothing about Butler and everything about UE screamed out to the MVC.


This is absolutely correct. Butler got lucky. At the time Evansville was added they definitely had a better program. If Butler had joined the Valley, they would not have had all of those NCAA appearances and would still be in the Valley. Sometimes things just work out.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby Mikovio » January 14th, 2018, 9:48 am

Eh I think you're right that it was more luck than anything. Stevens started as a volunteer in their athletic department and their endowment is much smaller than I expected. Being the top college program in Indianapolis though is a built in advantage that parlayed their spark into the Big East. It meant a larger potential base of support and something to sell to TV networks should they ever get going. Now, does that mean it was the better choice for the Valley in 1993? In retrospect of course but at the time it was less clear and their potential seemed remote. Fewer channels and smaller media deals back then too.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby jsaluki080 » January 15th, 2018, 1:24 am

Why is the MVC so adverse to an odd number? There isn’t a great 12th team willing to join yet. So I say we add only Murray for next season (18-19), then we wait another season or 2 to see if NKU, Milwaukee, or another school is looking better and/or if something happens (realignment) and Belmont/SLU change their minds.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby BCPanther » January 15th, 2018, 8:51 am

jsaluki080 wrote:Why is the MVC so adverse to an odd number? There isn’t a great 12th team willing to join yet. So I say we add only Murray for next season (18-19), then we wait another season or 2 to see if NKU, Milwaukee, or another school is looking better and/or if something happens (realignment) and Belmont/SLU change their minds.


An odd number makes WBB and VB scheduling a nightmare and really, really shafts Missouri State. They'd be the odd team out without a travel partner and would lead to either the other schools having to play 3 days in a row or make Missouri State have to play all their games on weeknights and miss a ton of class when nobody else is in that situation.

An odd number works just fine for Men's Basketball but really isn't sustainable long term.
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