Why RPI is Flawed

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Re: Why RPI is Flawed

Postby omahaben » December 16th, 2011, 12:43 pm

Aargh wrote:I think Valley fans pay too much attention to RPI. RPI is nothing more than an indicator and it can get way out of whack. I think the Selection Committee has recognized this problem many years ago and the Committee has probably been using RPI appropriately by mostly ignoring it.

Let's say that a team played half their season against end-of-the-season top-50 teams and went 8-8 in 16 games. That would establish them as probably the 20th-30th best team in the country. Their RPI would probably be below 10. There's the first problem.

Now, have that same team play another 16 games against bottom-50 teams and win all the games. The cupcakes kill the team's RPI. The team, that is now 24-8 in March, probably has an RPI around 70 or 80.

The team is established as a top-25 type team, yet they have an RPI that would lead to automatic elimination by the Committee if you just looked at RPI.

WSU's game against ChiSt demonstrates this. Compared to all other teams, WSU had been 28th based on their performance to this point. After playing ChiSt, WSU dropped to 50th because the SoS component was affected. WSU didn't actually get worse in comparison to other teams, but the RPI indicates they did.

This is probably what affected MSU a couple of times under Hinson. Other schools had played more games against higher-level competition (and won enough of those games), but also played more games against lower-level competition. MSU had a great W/L record and a solid SoS component, but beating RPI 100-150 teams bumped MSU's SoS higher than some other schools with a bunch of W's over RPI 250+ teams.

If Team A beats an RPI 100-150 opponent and Team B beats an RPI 250 opponent, that does nothing to indicate which team is better, but Team A will have a much higher RPI than Team B.


The RPI doesn't care about a team's rank; the NCAA committee does when looking at the overall resume, but the RPI itself doesn't give a whit whether a team's #1 or #300. The RPI is only concerned with records, as in your own, your opponents', and your opponents' opponents'. It's almost always better to play a 20-10 team ranked 100 in the RPI than it is a 16-14 team ranked 45th, for purely RPI purposes.

If you really want to game the RPI, you want to play teams that will finish with great records against weak-to-mediocre competition; think conference champions of the low majors and the like. Those are high probability wins that will look a helluva lot better than they should, because any damage to the opponents' opponents' record is more than offset by their sterling record counting towards your own SOS, which is the most heavily weighted portion (comprising 50% of the total RPI).

The other thing is that the RPI is a decent enough metric at the end of the season. People often complain that simply playing a strong/weak team can raise/lower your RPI significently regardless of outcome. Which is true, but since its purpose is simply to rank what has actually happened without any predictive value or assumptions about what could have happened, then that's not really a flaw so much as someone asking it to do something that it isn't meant to do.

I'm not saying the RPI is perfect or that there aren't better systems out there. But it is what it is.

My biggest issue with it is that the committee uses it in different ways for different teams. A good RPI will get a major conference team into the tourny, and a bad one will keep a mid-major out. But a good one won't get a mid-major in, and a bad one won't keep a major one out. But that has more to do with the biases of the humans, and less an issue with the RPI itself.
Last edited by omahaben on December 16th, 2011, 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why RPI is Flawed

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Re: Why RPI is Flawed

Postby omahaben » December 16th, 2011, 12:47 pm

Khan4Cats wrote:The biggest thing is top 50 RPI wins of which the Valley currently only has 3. Of those, only UNLV seems a strong candidate to stay in the top 50. The top Valley teams are going to have to slug it out amongst themselves and not drop any games to the bottom of the conference or they weaken themselves greatly.


Assuming the top 3 or 4 can separate themselves from the pack, there's 6 more top 50 wins simply from conference play (assuming 3 teams remain in the RPI top 50 by the end of the season).
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Re: Why RPI is Flawed

Postby Jet915 » December 16th, 2011, 4:28 pm

omahaben wrote:
Khan4Cats wrote:The biggest thing is top 50 RPI wins of which the Valley currently only has 3. Of those, only UNLV seems a strong candidate to stay in the top 50. The top Valley teams are going to have to slug it out amongst themselves and not drop any games to the bottom of the conference or they weaken themselves greatly.


Assuming the top 3 or 4 can separate themselves from the pack, there's 6 more top 50 wins simply from conference play (assuming 3 teams remain in the RPI top 50 by the end of the season).


SDSU is currently in the 50s for RPI, they may slip under 50 when all is said and done.
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Re: Why RPI is Flawed

Postby rally » December 16th, 2011, 7:40 pm

I think biggest is in how much weight I see people give the RPI this early in the season. There is still a little two-thirds of the season left, there is still a lot of data to be collected. That's why you see the fluctuations in WSU's case with Chicago St. this early in the season.
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Re: Why RPI is Flawed

Postby cpacmel » December 17th, 2011, 1:57 am

unipanther99 wrote:I think keeping our collective conference RPI up will help make the case for multiple bids as much as anything.


Committee doesn't even look at Conference RPI though.

And the higher the conference does not equate to more bids anyways. It certainly didn't last year, not among non-bcs conferences.
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Re: Why RPI is Flawed

Postby omahaben » December 18th, 2011, 5:38 pm

cpacmel wrote:
unipanther99 wrote:I think keeping our collective conference RPI up will help make the case for multiple bids as much as anything.


Committee doesn't even look at Conference RPI though.


Most years, Id agree. The year they took Air Force over Missouri State (I think), though, and you can't tell me that wasn't a "the MWC deserves a second bid" selection.
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Re: Why RPI is Flawed

Postby cpacmel » December 18th, 2011, 11:53 pm

Here are some interesting facts that happened with last year's Big Dance, in regards to RPI and CONFERENCE RPI.

1. Utah State. They have an RPI of #15. They are the 12th seed in the South East. That basically means the committee sees them as a top 48 school. So despite having an RPI of #15. there are at least 44 teams seeded better than them.

2. USC. They get an at-large bid with an RPI of 67. But Harvard (RPI of 35), Cleveland State (RPI of 42), Missouri State (RPI of 43), and St. Mary's (RPI of 46) are all omitted. Teams that are 22 to 32 spots better than USC. Marquette also got in with an RPI of 64.

3. Conference RPI.

The SEC is the 6th rated conference. They got 5 bids. The Mountain West is the 4th best conference and it only got 3 bids. And just to take it a step further, the PAC-10, which is the 7th best conference got 4 bids. So here you have conferences that are rated below the 4th rated Mountain West Conference, but they get more bids? Also the 9th and 10th rated conferences both got 3 bids, while the 8th rated conference only got 2.

Conferences don't get at-large bids. Individual teams do. Well.....unless your in a BCS conference. :bs:
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Re: Why RPI is Flawed

Postby squirrel » December 19th, 2011, 11:26 am

cpacmel wrote:Here are some interesting facts that happened with last year's Big Dance, in regards to RPI and CONFERENCE RPI.

1. Utah State. They have an RPI of #15. They are the 12th seed in the South East. That basically means the committee sees them as a top 48 school. So despite having an RPI of #15. there are at least 44 teams seeded better than them.

2. USC. They get an at-large bid with an RPI of 67. But Harvard (RPI of 35), Cleveland State (RPI of 42), Missouri State (RPI of 43), and St. Mary's (RPI of 46) are all omitted. Teams that are 22 to 32 spots better than USC. Marquette also got in with an RPI of 64.

3. Conference RPI.

The SEC is the 6th rated conference. They got 5 bids. The Mountain West is the 4th best conference and it only got 3 bids. And just to take it a step further, the PAC-10, which is the 7th best conference got 4 bids. So here you have conferences that are rated below the 4th rated Mountain West Conference, but they get more bids? Also the 9th and 10th rated conferences both got 3 bids, while the 8th rated conference only got 2.

Conferences don't get at-large bids. Individual teams do. Well.....unless your in a BCS conference. :bs:


USC is a little different case, though, IMO. Their lower RPI was because they didn't have a PG-and by extension a "backcourt"-until January. And at the end of the year, they were playing as well as anyone in the P10 (and yes, I am aware it was a bad league last year).

The problem isn't so much the RPI as it is two factors that largely go unmentioned when we talk about the RPI today compared to 15 years ago.

1) 15 years ago, Valley schools were able to schedule very attractive, top-flight schedules. Schools at the CAA-A10 level and mid-level and lower BCS conference teams went on the road with much greater regularity. Now, only a small handful of BCS schools stray from home and it is rare to get series with A10, MWC, WAC and CAA schools. There are two reasons for this, 1) the chicken factor, and 2) the engorgement of DI (which is also the second factor).

2) The RPI's effectiveness has also been greatly impacted by the influx of schools into the DI calculation. A major reason so many teams at the MVC level on up have stopped going on the road more, is because there are almost 50 more bottom-tier ("bad") schools in the calculation that are gravitating to those other schools, who are in turn, also winning more because they are playing more bad teams in home games-and by extension-this has negatively impacted the overall depth of quality for MVC home non-con games.
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Re: Why RPI is Flawed

Postby cpacmel » December 19th, 2011, 8:19 pm

squirrel wrote:USC is a little different case, though, IMO. Their lower RPI was because they didn't have a PG-and by extension a "backcourt"-until January. And at the end of the year, they were playing as well as anyone in the P10 (and yes, I am aware it was a bad league last year).


USC was 13-10 with their PG. 6-5 without him.

And if USC was playing as well as anyone in the PAC-10 at the end of the year, why didn't they get out of the SEMI-FINALS of the PAC-10 tourney?
1) 15 years ago, Valley schools were able to schedule very attractive, top-flight schedules. Schools at the CAA-A10 level and mid-level and lower BCS conference teams went on the road with much greater regularity. Now, only a small handful of BCS schools stray from home and it is rare to get series with A10, MWC, WAC and CAA schools. There are two reasons for this, 1) the chicken factor, and 2) the engorgement of DI (which is also the second factor).


90% of the MVC schools get a game with MWC every year because of the challenge, which didn't happen 15 years ago.

Here are some NON-Conf SOS #'s from today for MVC schools

UNI 13

Indy State 47

Drake 66

Wichita State 81

Bradley 93 (game left with Michigan 42)

Mo State 153 (games left with West VA 52 and St. Marys 32)

Creighton 157 (game left with Northwestern 38)
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Re: Why RPI is Flawed

Postby Aargh » December 21st, 2011, 2:54 am

UNI has become the poster child for this thread. UNI's record against current RPI teams is as follows:

1-50: 0-1
51-100: 3-1
101-150: 3-0
151-200: 2-0
200+: 1-0

By only playing 3 teams with RPI's of 150+ and going 6-1 against teams with RPI's from 51 to 150, UNI has managed to get an RPI of 4. An evaluation of UNI's schedule shows that UNI has absolutely nothing that will get them post-season consideration past the NIT.
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