Exhibition game results - DePauw 66 Evansville 62

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Re: Exhibition game results - DePauw 66 Evansville 62

Postby WSUbballer » November 11th, 2010, 12:32 pm

So we're following the A-10 in everything? Or any other conference for that matter? If Butler was traded out for Evansville, you'd be a fool to think it wouldn't change things in the Valley's future. Butler may go back and forth and have up's and down's, but I like their potential over Evansville's. If Butler stays as consistent as Gonzaga, there is no way they hurt the Valley, especially when you compare it to Evansville.

I dunno why you're infatuated with comparing WSU to Evansville because that is not the argument. Has anyone said that we're the Kansas Jayhawks? Stop stuffing the box with things that weren't said. There's a lot more that is brought to the table besides NCAA appearances. There are other things that go into it as well. Surely, you're not that naive to think otherwise.
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Re: Exhibition game results - DePauw 66 Evansville 62

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Re: Exhibition game results - DePauw 66 Evansville 62

Postby jayball » November 11th, 2010, 1:14 pm

Baller,

I dont' know if I understand your last post completely. not flaming just didn't follow it.

My understanding of the argument/viewpoint of some WSU fans is that the MVC should boot UE to have a stronger program come in to something better, but I don't know what that is???????...raise the conference RPI?.....guarantee multiple bids for the MVC?.....get more exposure/prestige/national recognition?.....Bring more people to St Louis? What do you want to accomplish with the new member?

I challenge the idea that we could bring in anyone that would significantly alter those things above. Could they be improved marginally, yes but you are also adding another hurdle for WSU to earn championships and danceshoes.

My main point is that we would still be a midwestern nonBCS conference. Based on the last several years, it seems to be less about our conference and more about the success of each individual team that is going to determine NCAA bids. Our conference hasn't dropped dramatically RPIwise since 2006, but we are struggling to get multiple bids. To me that says the individual resumes aren't quite stackng up at least according to the committee. They don't care about conference RPI.

I compared WSU to UE and the MVC to show that while you have $$$, fan support, and facilities that are better than many of those in conference, you don't really have a giant lead in on the court accomplishments, especially in the last 25 years. To me that seems to be a tough place to make demands that everyone else step up their games. I was also trying to point out that in several areas UE has better numbers than Drake and InSt, but I don't see people focusing on those schools as much. Why is that?

My only thought is that some WSU fans have egos that their program can't cash (like some fans of CU and other schools) and UE is the current WSU whipping boy to explain that. I'm looking for another rational explanation if there is one.
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Re: Exhibition game results - DePauw 66 Evansville 62

Postby WSUbballer » November 11th, 2010, 2:45 pm

jayball,

I think this has taken its course. I don't think you're ever going to be convinced that Evansville should be ousted and I (and others) aren't going to be convinced that they are an equally quality contributor of the conference. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

I just think it's a tad humorous that the only people that have come to UE's side of this argument are a couple of CU fans. It may be what they truly believe and entirely coincidental that they picked the opposite end of some Shocker fans' opinions. Hell, it is on record that even a UE fan believes his team isn't worthy of the Valley. The only other UE fans that have chimed in haven't made an argument about their stay in the conference, only pointing out that their win last year over WSU and their eventual wins this year. And it's not just WSU fans that are in the middle of this issue. Several fans of other schools have also made comments about nixing UE. How come those fans' respective schools haven't been called out? I think this "issue" is more against you than you really think.

UE has provided for some tough individual matchups in recent years. WSU has dominated MSU more this decade than UE and I think it's safe to say MSU has been WAY more relevant than UE has. What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. UE is still bringing up the rear in a lot of sports and ways other than its flailing men's basketball program. If you individually look at WSU vs. UE game-by-game, it may not look that bad. But if you look at the "bigger picture", there's a lot of separation. I'm only bringing WSU into this because it's being brought in by you. But if you look at the majority of schools in this league and compare them in the "bigger picture" against UE, there are BIG differences. Maybe you tend to lean to the "left" on certain issues and this is subconsciously helping to make your case with this one.

About Drake and Indiana State.. well for one, they have much longer histories in the conference and that right there gives them an automatic edge. Drake has been a charter member of the conference. They have some great history even if it is ancient history. You can't take away that. Indiana State has done little but they have still outshone Evansville in the history department. How far has UE ever advanced in the NCAA's?

It's easier to pick out a team that has no history here and is doing little to make up for lost time. In this case, that would be Evansville. Maybe that's why they haven't done anything since their transitional period from the MCC to the Valley. They did well in the MCC but it hasn't translated here. Think it's just a coincidence? I think not.
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Re: Exhibition game results - DePauw 66 Evansville 62

Postby jayball » November 11th, 2010, 4:22 pm

Baller,

I'd like to see the Valley be as strong as possible, heck I'd like it to be a household name across the country. If I thought that droppig UE and getting Butler would do that, I would support it. I just don't see it being as big of a bump as some others, which have mostly been WSU fans.

WSUbballer wrote:But if you look at the majority of schools in this league and compare them in the "bigger picture" against UE, there are BIG differences.


This is where I'm trying to understand. What is the bigger picture around UE? What is different about UE than Drake and InSt? Football? Resources? Fan support? If it is just the ancient history I'm not sure I buy that as a good reason to force them out. The source much of the UE stuff seemed to be shockers, so it appeared to be partially motivated by some perception that WSU was being held back by UE perhaps because of a few bad losses. That I don't buy.

Evile was much more successful in the Horizon League and hasn't been able to match that success in the Valley. If they want to move good for them. If I was one of their fans I would want to go back there. I just don't think the MVC automatically takes a big jump or gets some immeadiate boost by them leaving. You see them as an anchor for WSU and the Valley somehow. I just see them as irrelevant since they've come on board.

To make noise the Valley needs 3-4 very solid programs to win repeatedly each year. You want to bring in someone else to help with that. I'd rather it be WSU, CU, UNI, ect that does it. I don't need Butler to come in here and compete for MVC titles, national attention, and spots in the dance I want CU to be battling for #1 each year, winning as many as possbile and getting to the dance a lot. IMHO, adding Butler for UE doesn't automatically help CU accomplish that because they don't automatically increase our bid number.

Does that sound communist or something?

I do like underdogs. I feel like our entire conference is full of underdogs. That is why I enjoy Valleyball. In this case I see no effect from UE being in the conference on CU's ability to be successful.

I think you would have to blow up the MVC entirely to get the type of conference some WSU fans want.

Trouble is....if the MVC blows up....it could be hard for WSU to find a spot fitting their stature. Which nonfootball D1 league do you want to join?

America East Conference
Atlantic Sun Conference
Atlantic 10 Conference
Big West Conference
Horizon League
Independents
Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference
Missouri Valley Conference
The Summit League
West Coast Conference
Last edited by jayball on November 11th, 2010, 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Exhibition game results - DePauw 66 Evansville 62

Postby Ace Dad » November 11th, 2010, 4:39 pm

Baller, let it go. Please.
There is no difference between basketball and life. Give both your best and ignore the "fans" on the sideline.
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Re: Exhibition game results - DePauw 66 Evansville 62

Postby WSUbballer » November 11th, 2010, 4:54 pm

Ace Dad wrote:Baller, let it go. Please.


Excuse me?

I didn't rehash this thing to the top of the board. That was done by someone else.


Please don't call me out just because I want to see you in the OVC.
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Re: Exhibition game results - DePauw 66 Evansville 62

Postby Drakey » November 11th, 2010, 4:57 pm

Why do people talk about Butler joining the Valley? Butler is one of a handful of schools that have figured out the one way to national prominence for a non BCS school, which is to play in a weak conference, dominate that conference, get into the NCAA tournament every year, and improve recruiting every year as a result. If the Valley had taken Butler instead of Evansville when they both applied, Evansville might have been in the final four last year. I can assure you that Butler would not have been, as they probably would have been in the NCAA tournament 2-3 times at the most over the past 15 years.
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Re: Exhibition game results - DePauw 66 Evansville 62

Postby WSUbballer » November 11th, 2010, 5:05 pm

jayball, I understand your general logic that replacing Butler with an Evansville would make things more difficult for individual programs. Every conference needs a whipping boy and I guess ours is Evansville. Am I right to assume this?

Exhibition games are meaningless. I get that. When teams continually lose to schools two tiers below them (Division III), it makes that school look grotesque. In return, it hurts the conference's image IMO. And then if that team gets hot one night and takes down an NCAA at-large contender, it's not good. (Again, it was WSU's fault for losing that game, not saying it wasn't). UNI lost a couple of seed lines with their loss to UE IMO. Those losses do happen. South Florida a couple of years ago. Colorado has stunned KU a few times before. The Valley is a completely different animal. We need less drag from the bottom IMO. Schools like WSU, Creighton, Bradley, etc. have large fanbases that bring $$$$ and prestige into the league. SIU, UNI have brought limelight onto the conference with their postseason runs. Empty arenas with 250 RPI grenades on a continuous basis is what I would call "drag". If you're the one who believes we all need conference "whipping boys", then I guess I see your side of things a little bit more. We disagree that replacing Evansville with Butler would give the league more balance and attention. Drake has made a nice recent run. Indiana State is borderline, but like I said, they have had a good history a while back, and have taken small steps to improve. We haven't seen that consistently with Evansville.

Evansville would fit perfectly in the OVC or some other middling conference, IMO.
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Re: Exhibition game results - DePauw 66 Evansville 62

Postby WSUbballer » November 11th, 2010, 5:07 pm

Drakey wrote:Why do people talk about Butler joining the Valley? Butler is one of a handful of schools that have figured out the one way to national prominence for a non BCS school, which is to play in a weak conference, dominate that conference, get into the NCAA tournament every year, and improve recruiting every year as a result. If the Valley had taken Butler instead of Evansville when they both applied, Evansville might have been in the final four last year. I can assure you that Butler would not have been, as they probably would have been in the NCAA tournament 2-3 times at the most over the past 15 years.


Do you really think the Horizon League has helped Butler to be who they are today? Butler has helped themselves for what they've done OUTSIDE of the conference, not in it.

And as for this line, I thought twice about responding to you because I'm wondering if I should've even have taken this post seriously.. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Drakey wrote:If the Valley had taken Butler instead of Evansville when they both applied, Evansville might have been in the final four last year.
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Re: Exhibition game results - DePauw 66 Evansville 62

Postby jayball » November 11th, 2010, 5:32 pm

Drakey wrote:Why do people talk about Butler joining the Valley? Butler is one of a handful of schools that have figured out the one way to national prominence for a non BCS school, which is to play in a weak conference, dominate that conference, get into the NCAA tournament every year, and improve recruiting every year as a result. If the Valley had taken Butler instead of Evansville when they both applied, Evansville might have been in the final four last year. I can assure you that Butler would not have been, as they probably would have been in the NCAA tournament 2-3 times at the most over the past 15 years.


Agreed. Gonzaga and Butler have proven that your league doesn't matter. Beat the big boys, win in March....repeat. Everyone loves you.

The only schools with any incentive to join the Valley would not really "help" they Valley anymore than UE.

Maybe WSU should actually move to the Summit League? Then they could really dominate and become who they always imagined that they could have been. (I kid I kid)

baller wrote:The Valley is a completely different animal


Baller.....yes we are a different animal from BCS conference. If you think we are going to get a huge jump in TV money, national exposure, or NCAA bids by trading small private school in Ohio for one in Indiana....I think you are wrong. TV money drives conferences and college athletics. IMO, Butler might as well be UE for that purpose. It would take one or two bad years and Butler is out of national spotlight. They don't cement anything for the MVC. example: How many people are taking about George Mason anymore?

Overall, I think your league image thing is bogus. The Valley will be judged by the top programs and who they beat like every other conference. If we have more than one team beating people, we will get more attention. UE has their own issues to fix but they aren't holding anyone back.

Our problem is
1.)our best programs have trouble schedule good teams to prove how good they are.
2.) we usually have a few good teams that beat up on each other so no one stands out as clearly the best.

When it comes time for bids we are praying that our regular season champ doesn't win in St Louis or that the 2nd/3rd place teams won some really big games early in the year.
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