NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

Postby TheAsianSensation » April 12th, 2017, 9:06 pm

MOST wrote:
BCPanther wrote: :Violin: :Violin: :Violin: :Violin: :Violin:
That's literally the worst thing I've ever seen. WTF would UNI and MSU want to do that? I mean it's basically the old North Central Conference that UNI couldn't get out of fast enough 40 years ago. And you're randomly taking teams from conferences that have nothing to do with this realignment.

Stop. Just stop.


I am advocating consolidating conference into more localized/regional, efficient units. And, what I propose for the New Summit is a lot different than the North Central 40 years ago. I think SDSU, SDU and NDSU all made the quarterfinals of the FCS play offs. In BB SDSU and ND U made the NCAA and and SD U made the NIT, and NEB Omaha looked exceptional in the Summit Tournament. All 3 teams looked as good or better than any MVC team except WSU (and maybe Ill State).

UNI and MO State will elevate, make the conference better.

The MVC is getting old and tired. If the MVC does not do something drastic it will drop from the # 12 ranking 4 or 5 places to #17 or #18 to trail the Sun Belt, the Mid-American, the Southern, and the Metro Atlantic Athletic. Hopefully a Shuffle of teams between conferences will energize BB teams to do/be
better.

Without diving too deeply into the math, there's an old thread somewhere around here talking about RPI rankings and such. The consensus is that we're in no real danger of losing our spot as a top 12 conference without Wichita. The bottom line is that while we lose touch with the A-10 and Mountain West, we're not going to drop down into the next tier of conferences.

The MVC is exactly the type of conference that should EXPAND its borders for the sake of building basketball power. Geographic consolidation is exactly, specifically, the enemy of this conference.
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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

Postby uniftw » April 12th, 2017, 9:28 pm

TheAsianSensation wrote:
MOST wrote:
BCPanther wrote: :Violin: :Violin: :Violin: :Violin: :Violin:
That's literally the worst thing I've ever seen. WTF would UNI and MSU want to do that? I mean it's basically the old North Central Conference that UNI couldn't get out of fast enough 40 years ago. And you're randomly taking teams from conferences that have nothing to do with this realignment.

Stop. Just stop.


I am advocating consolidating conference into more localized/regional, efficient units. And, what I propose for the New Summit is a lot different than the North Central 40 years ago. I think SDSU, SDU and NDSU all made the quarterfinals of the FCS play offs. In BB SDSU and ND U made the NCAA and and SD U made the NIT, and NEB Omaha looked exceptional in the Summit Tournament. All 3 teams looked as good or better than any MVC team except WSU (and maybe Ill State).

UNI and MO State will elevate, make the conference better.

The MVC is getting old and tired. If the MVC does not do something drastic it will drop from the # 12 ranking 4 or 5 places to #17 or #18 to trail the Sun Belt, the Mid-American, the Southern, and the Metro Atlantic Athletic. Hopefully a Shuffle of teams between conferences will energize BB teams to do/be
better.

Without diving too deeply into the math, there's an old thread somewhere around here talking about RPI rankings and such. The consensus is that we're in no real danger of losing our spot as a top 12 conference without Wichita. The bottom line is that while we lose touch with the A-10 and Mountain West, we're not going to drop down into the next tier of conferences.

The MVC is exactly the type of conference that should EXPAND its borders for the sake of building basketball power. Geographic consolidation is exactly, specifically, the enemy of this conference.

KenPom has us 10th - believe it or not - as of now in the preseason rankings for next year.

So....

It's why I'm not entirely hating the idea of 9 and focusing on making everyone better
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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

Postby MOST » April 13th, 2017, 5:11 am

Kenpom or not I don't accept it. Preseason 10th?? Crazy. Preseason RPIs this early are truly speculative. Too much happening in all D1 BB to be accurate: coaching changes, teams changing conferences, player transfers, player early departures to the NBA draft, team(s) downgrading to D2 (Savannah State), budget crunches, etc, etc, etc.

No way can MVC stay where they are in the power rankings with 9 teams and WSU leaving (too big a SHOCK! pun, pun). Regardless of how/who MVC adds it will remain a 1 bid conference---that is how the NCAA is set up---unless the conference season champ gets beat in the conference tournament and the NCAA feels sorry for the season champ and takes both---NCAA will remain locked on the auto bid to the tournament champ. The NCAA selection process is not a selection process--the 32 conference auto bids nullifies the selection process and makes it a seeding process.

If NCAA wants to better the selection process reduce auto bids to the top 8 or 9 conference tournament champs and then actually select the remaining 56 to 60 teams---at the same time restrict the number of teams to ???? from any one conference---to do 1 they have to do 2---for example selecting 7, 8, 9 teams from the P5/Big East is ridiculous and is killing mid-major BB. In 2017 only 9 conference had 2 or more teams in the Tournament--23 conference had only only 1 bid/team in the Tournament.
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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

Postby musiccitybulldog » April 13th, 2017, 6:11 am

I don't believe it's that complicated. A big part besides competitiveness in the replacement team is what the fans will enjoy and find interesting. I see Belmont and Murray State easily do that for the MVC.
With both MVC season and NCAA tourney, you have to create something people are going to want to watch and be interested in.
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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

Postby uniftw » April 13th, 2017, 6:25 am

MOST wrote:Kenpom or not I don't accept it. Preseason 10th?? Crazy. Preseason RPIs this early are truly speculative. Too much happening in all D1 BB to be accurate: coaching changes, teams changing conferences, player transfers, player early departures to the NBA draft, team(s) downgrading to D2 (Savannah State), budget crunches, etc, etc, etc.

No way can MVC stay where they are in the power rankings with 9 teams and WSU leaving (too big a SHOCK! pun, pun). Regardless of how/who MVC adds it will remain a 1 bid conference---that is how the NCAA is set up---unless the conference season champ gets beat in the conference tournament and the NCAA feels sorry for the season champ and takes both---NCAA will remain locked on the auto bid to the tournament champ. The NCAA selection process is not a selection process--the 32 conference auto bids nullifies the selection process and makes it a seeding process.

If NCAA wants to better the selection process reduce auto bids to the top 8 or 9 conference tournament champs and then actually select the remaining 56 to 60 teams---at the same time restrict the number of teams to ???? from any one conference---to do 1 they have to do 2---for example selecting 7, 8, 9 teams from the P5/Big East is ridiculous and is killing mid-major BB. In 2017 only 9 conference had 2 or more teams in the Tournament--23 conference had only only 1 bid/team in the Tournament.

Just checked my preseason ratings by conf. Kind of interesting. 1. B12, 2. BE, 3. SEC, 4. ACC, 5. B10, 6. P12, 7. AAC, 8. MW, 9. A10 10. MVC


It is possible to stay there, even at 9 teams. The fact you don't understand how it's possible shows you don't understand a damn thing about college basketball - and more specifically the RPI process.

You also clearly don't know anything about NCAA by-laws if you think you can only give bids to 8 or 9 conferences. Even if that was possible, how do you determine the top 8 or 9? What measures should be used?
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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

Postby BEARZ77 » April 13th, 2017, 6:52 am

Conferences don't get bids [ except for the auto bid for the Conference Tourney Champ] teams do. As I noted before, the formula is there and it's simple to understand, just hard to do. Yes the opportunities are limited for mid major teams and the Bigs have built in advantage because of their access to top 50-100 wins via their conference schedule and conference tourneys. The AAC is trying to promote themselves as the P-6
[ understandable because of their football playing members, but laughable if viewed in terms of BB if compared to the Big East], yet they only got two bids last year, less than the A-10, the same as the West Coast, and the same # as the MVC has in many recent years. Why, because they only had two teams that did enough with their INDIVIDUAL SCHEDULES. We all know that ISUr was a Tourney caliber team last year, and while a stronger Valley may have helped their cause, still they just didn't go out and schedule the type of possible wins in the non con needed to make the cut.

Does it weaken the Valley for teams like Creighton and WSU to have left; of course. But individually the path to the NCAA Tourney is no different than before. You can schedule the way most teams have recently and you have one shot, win the Conference Tourney. Or you can go out , take some risks in the non con by scheduling tough[ top 50-100/most likely road games] limit the bad loss opportunities in your schedule, and roll the dice. Guess what, win a few[3-5] of those games, avoid the bad losses, and finish in the top 2 of your conference and you have a chance no matter what the letters in your conference name say. And if you get blown out the water in the non con, guess what, you still have the same opportunity all the schedule safe teams do by winning the conference tourney.
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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

Postby uniftw » April 13th, 2017, 8:12 am

BEARZ77 wrote:Conferences don't get bids [ except for the auto bid for the Conference Tourney Champ] teams do. As I noted before, the formula is there and it's simple to understand, just hard to do. Yes the opportunities are limited for mid major teams and the Bigs have built in advantage because of their access to top 50-100 wins via their conference schedule and conference tourneys. The AAC is trying to promote themselves as the P-6
[ understandable because of their football playing members, but laughable if viewed in terms of BB if compared to the Big East], yet they only got two bids last year, less than the A-10, the same as the West Coast, and the same # as the MVC has in many recent years. Why, because they only had two teams that did enough with their INDIVIDUAL SCHEDULES. We all know that ISUr was a Tourney caliber team last year, and while a stronger Valley may have helped their cause, still they just didn't go out and schedule the type of possible wins in the non con needed to make the cut.

Does it weaken the Valley for teams like Creighton and WSU to have left; of course. But individually the path to the NCAA Tourney is no different than before. You can schedule the way most teams have recently and you have one shot, win the Conference Tourney. Or you can go out , take some risks in the non con by scheduling tough[ top 50-100/most likely road games] limit the bad loss opportunities in your schedule, and roll the dice. Guess what, win a few[3-5] of those games, avoid the bad losses, and finish in the top 2 of your conference and you have a chance no matter what the letters in your conference name say. And if you get blown out the water in the non con, guess what, you still have the same opportunity all the schedule safe teams do by winning the conference tourney.
We have a winner.

UNI, and WSU, are the only two teams in the MVC that have been putting together schedules that would allow for an at-large bid. I would, and do, argue that UNI over schedules and costs themselves their chance at an at-large before the season starts. Look at last years schedule, given what was being lost

Tire Pros Invite (played Arizona State, Oklahoma and Xavier). That's actually a really good MTE.
@ Xavier (played them twice in a row, 6 days apart, by a scheduling coincidence). First year of a H/H.
George Mason
@Wyoming (MWC/MVC challenge)
South Dakota State (Summit auto bid)
UND (Big Sky regular season and post season champ)
Iowa (Big Four Classic - rotate Iowa/Iowa State
@ North Carolina

This year the schedule is
Xavier
@ North Carolina
Home in the MWC/MVC challenge
Supposedly home vs UNLV
Iowa State
MTE (Battle for Atlantis - teams are Nova, Zona, Purdue, SMU, NC State, Tennessee and WKu)

So, defending national champs, an Elite 8 team, Iowa State is always a top 20 team, and the B4A is 6 top 20 teams.

It's great to go - Man, we get to play the big guys all OOC. It's also probably a bit too much.

There needs to be a happy medium. If the entire conference can work on finding that medium the conference will be just fine - and a head - of where it is now.
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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

Postby MOST » April 13th, 2017, 9:04 am

UNIFTW wrote:

It is possible to stay there, even at 9 teams. The fact you don't understand how it's possible shows you don't understand a damn thing about college basketball - and more specifically the RPI process.

You also clearly don't know anything about NCAA by-laws if you think you can only give bids to 8 or 9 conferences. Even if that was possible, how do you determine the top 8 or 9? What measures should be used?[/quote]

Sir I started watching college basket ball 66 years in 1951 (SW MO STATE). The BEARS played and beat every good NAIA/Small College/D2 team in the country (2 NAIA National Championship and a 3rd place, and 5 or 6 appearnces in the small college/D2 National Championship game. I do not remember UNI being in the list of BEAR victims. And YES they (BEARS) are now going through some bad times.

RPI's. I watch basketball, high school and college, to just enjoy the game, the tension, the crowd, the pep bands, the cheer leaders, the atmosphere. I do not sit at a game with a calculator or a laptop playing with RPIs trying to figure out who is supposed to win---I just watch the game and the scoreboard.

Metrics and metric heads have taken the fun out of BB.

AS far as KENPOM I can not find 2018 conference projections. Send me an address/url.

AS set up now the NCAA tournament WITH 32 AUTO BIDS is a "feel good" "touchy feeling" for most teams out of the bottom 15 plus conferences. A "LOOK AT US WE MADE THE BIG DANCE". Can't hurt feeling by the/a conference not getting a bid---even if is just a little ole auto bid.

I think it borders on ridiculous to believe that the MVC will climb 2 power ranking spaces to 10th in 2018, regardless of who they add.
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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

Postby uniftw » April 13th, 2017, 10:10 am

I quoted a tweet from KenPom - here's a direct link to his tweet https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/8 ... 0313701376

It isn't 10 if we add two teams. Its's 10th as the conference sits right now.

You can think the metrics has taken the fun out of the game, but the reality is metrics are FAR superior to ranking/picking teams than just the blind eye test. Yes, it has it's issues. Yes eye tests has some advantages. However, you'll find computers are blinded by nearly the same amount of bias as humans are. When it comes to "pick em" style games a computer will out pick 80-90% of the "average" basketball fan. Those that are in depth followers of the game will out pick a computer, but not by much.

Without metrics, how will you pick the 8 best conferences to get an auto bid? Eye test simply won't cut it.

Believe it or not, scoreboards don't always tell the story of the better team.

If you have 66 years of remembering watching basketball you are well into your 70s. Not to be ageist but you wouldn't understand metrics. You wouldn't understand the modern game, especailly if you find them conflabbid formulas silly and joy suckers.

32 bids has nothing to do with "touchy feely". NCAA by-laws state that any NCAA sanctioned post season tournament must have an automatic birth for every NCAA conference. A conference is allowed to turn it down - see the MEAC, SWAC and Ivy in FCS football. Makes sense. If you are going to officially sanction an event, all member conferences must have access to it. As part of the by-laws you must have 1 at large for every automatic qualifier. There are 32 conferences. That means there must be at least 32 at-large bids.

I'm sorry you don't understand that. Although that post answered so many questions I had about you - including why using the quote function is so hard.
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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

Postby TheAsianSensation » April 13th, 2017, 10:32 am

As a caveat, it should be said that being ranked 10th in Kenpom isn't the end to the argument. There are years where we can be ranked 11th and have an at-large team, and years where we can be ranked 9th and have no at-large teams. All rankings are relative to the status of other leagues.

However, the general point of us not being near the doldrums of the country (in MAC/Fun Belt/OVC territory) remains. Those leagues in their best year can get to 11th or 12th. The MVC in our worst year going forward will get to 11th or 12th. That's what has to be considered.
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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

Postby uniftw » April 13th, 2017, 10:36 am

TheAsianSensation wrote:As a caveat, it should be said that being ranked 10th in Kenpom isn't the end to the argument. There are years where we can be ranked 11th and have an at-large team, and years where we can be ranked 9th and have no at-large teams. All rankings are relative to the status of other leagues.

However, the general point of us not being near the doldrums of the country (in MAC/Fun Belt/OVC territory) remains. Those leagues in their best year can get to 11th or 12th. The MVC in our worst year going forward will get to 11th or 12th. That's what has to be considered.

Agreed. It's the main reason I would rather add no one that a boat anchor. Keep the conference more compact, but competitive if need be. "Game the system" so to speak.

Programs like UNO, UMKC, ORU, etc.. have shown me no reason they won't be another anchor.
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Re: NDSU/SDSU to MVC asap.

Postby MOST » April 13th, 2017, 11:21 am

uniftw wrote:I quoted a tweet from KenPom - here's a direct link to his tweet https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/8 ... 0313701376

It isn't 10 if we add two teams. Its's 10th as the conference sits right now.

You can think the metrics has taken the fun out of the game, but the reality is metrics are FAR superior to ranking/picking teams than just the blind eye test. Yes, it has it's issues. Yes eye tests has some advantages. However, you'll find computers are blinded by nearly the same amount of bias as humans are. When it comes to "pick em" style games a computer will out pick 80-90% of the "average" basketball fan. Those that are in depth followers of the game will out pick a computer, but not by much.

Without metrics, how will you pick the 8 best conferences to get an auto bid? Eye test simply won't cut it.

Believe it or not, scoreboards don't always tell the story of the better team.

If you have 66 years of remembering watching basketball you are well into your 70s. Not to be ageist but you wouldn't understand metrics. You wouldn't understand the modern game, especailly if you find them conflabbid formulas silly and joy suckers.

32 bids has nothing to do with "touchy feely". NCAA by-laws state that any NCAA sanctioned post season tournament must have an automatic birth for every NCAA conference. A conference is allowed to turn it down - see the MEAC, SWAC and Ivy in FCS football. Makes sense. If you are going to officially sanction an event, all member conferences must have access to it. As part of the by-laws you must have 1 at large for every automatic qualifier. There are 32 conferences. That means there must be at least 32 at-large bids.

I'm sorry you don't understand that. Although that post answered so many questions I had about you - including why using the quote function is so hard.


The reason I don't use 'Quote" is it makes postings to long and repetitive-especially if multiple posters quote the same piece. And I usually wind up deleting most of what was quoted. So what not just say or cut and paste what I want to respond to.

The "modern game". Last time I watched a game, April 2017, it was still 2- 5 man teams, dribbling, passing, shooting, playing some set of defense and we played man-to man and several forms of zone defense 66 years ago rebounding, do it again! In your statements you must believe that older players/stars could not do now what they did then (Bill Russell, Wilt, Cousy, Havlicek, Bob Pettit, and 10,00 others).

At the end of the game it is the numbers on the score board that tells who was the better team---at least during the game.

You come across like my 3 airhead know it all sons: been nowhere, done nothing, know nothing, walking around with either a cell phone, a tablet, or a laptop (the universe exists only in digital format).

And you are an ageist.

Some one just posted something about dropping auto bids to the SWAC and the MEAC. You do realize those are HBCU conferences and teams. To suggest that will get Jesse Jackson all over your case. But, the idea is correct: drop auto bids to the bottom XX rated conferences. The P5s plus will still get their #6-#9 teams in the tournament--but cutting the autos may 2nd, 3rd and maybe 4th bids to the 10 to 15 ranked mid-majors.

The NCAA can and should change their by-laws. Or we can have fans of the better mid-major teams continue to grind their teeth and whine about the unfair NCAA selection process.
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