What's the next realignment domino to fall?

[Jsnhbe1Birds]

Gonzaga, Creighton, Xavier, VCU, Wichita State..none have football. Only Dayton and Butler field teams.

[Mikovio]

Mikovio:

I never said there was any correlation between FCS football and basketball success...
that is actually the argument that you and the private school brethren always make when the MVC
wants to expand. As with NDSU and SDSU it all comes back to the fact that they spend more on football
than basketball. So what...UNI and ISUr do too and they have been very successful in the Valley.

Also if you want me to go back longer than 3 years then how about this....ISUr has the HIGHEST
winning percentage both in conference and for all games for current Valley members ( and that would
include WSU too!)

The privates need to stop whining about FCS football and blocking good conference candidates like
Murray St, NDSU and SDSU.

25-1

I figured you were implying some sort of causation when you said ISU is doing well in basketball and football. My point is they're not interrelated. I'm not saying good FCS football in itself is necessarily HARMFUL to mens basketball -- just that dollars lost chasing FCS football would be better spent on mens basketball, where the payouts and exposure in the tournament is HUGE. Valley schools are still living off the NCAA shares earned by Wichita. Ali Faroukhmanesh is still a household name!

I mean, we can stipulate that more money is better, right? It's a simple concept. With more money, you can keep your coaches. NDSU lost its coach to Ohio. Not long ago Illinois State lost Jankovich to SMU -- to be an assistant, albeit a "next in line" assistant -- and they were lucky to make a good replacement hire. But that's absolutely no guarantee, as ISUr fans should remember well the Richardson and Moser years, when they were the ones dragging the conference down. The better they pay Muller the less likely he is to jump for the MWC or AAC.

And actually you're wrong about ISUr having the best win %. Missouri State does (63%), and yes ISUr (58.3%) squeaked past Bradley this season (58.1%) for second. We'll see if that holds!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... basketball

BTW, Murray State (64.2%) would be even higher than the Bears, but again, it's not the "privates" who are keeping them out. The Missouri State president in an interview said adding them as an 11th team was a non-starter because they couldn't afford to go without a travel partner. So if you didn't believe me earlier, believe me when I say BUDGETS MATTER. It's literally keeping the Valley from adding what would be its winningest team.

[BEARZ77]

Gonzaga, Creighton, Xavier, VCU, Wichita State..none have football. Only Dayton and Butler field teams.

You could add teams like St. Mary's, Florida Gulf Coast and several others as well that have been making names in College Basketball. I love football; I just never get the argument that FCS football, when you look at it's expense vs it's revenue at the majority of Universities playing it and add in all the other issues, doesn't cripple those Universities efforts in other areas. It's so obvious. Just because Universities [privates mostly] not playing FCS Football don't all do well in their other sports, is not a proof against it's negative financial impact against those who do. I've resigned myself that at MSU we will continue to lose significant $$$ annually to fund FCS football, and as a result fund every other sport in the lower 3rd of the league even though historically we have the ability to be top 2-3 in attendance for MBB and actually make money at WBB.

[mvfcfan]

The Missouri State needing a travel partner argument is exactly why I think Oral Roberts will end up getting an invite, along with Murray State.

Travel Partners:
Evansville and Indiana State
Valpo and Loyola
Illinois State and Bradley
UNI and Drake
Southern Illinois and Murray State
Missouri State and Oral Roberts

Also keeps publics and privates even at 6 each. Despite Oral Roberts problems they have the potential to be pretty decent eventually. I'm a NDSU / SDSU to the conference guy, but I would be very pleased with an ORU / MuSu addition.

I honestly think we are probably trying to get St Louis to join (along with Murray State), but I just don't see it ever happening. Getting to basically host the tournament every year would be a huge bonus and getting to play more regional teams, but that's about it.

The St Louis fans don't seem to thrilled about the idea of joining the MVC either. http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.ph ... i-valley/&

[VUGrad1314]

I wonder if the budget concerns are going to force the MVC to target Horizon League schools again and a very underwhelming and uninspiring, albeit fairly high-upside combo of UIC and Milwaukee will be the additions. Personally, I want no part of Milwaukee's dysfunctional Athletic Department and would prefer to see UIC prove that their recent uptick in performance is real before inviting them. As staunch a proponent of expansion as I am, there just isn't a sufficiently appealing second team to Murray State. Oral Roberts may not even have the money even if they were the answer, as somebody in this thread mentioned financial difficulties at the school; and if Belmont and SLU won't budge from their less than ideal situations, what makes anyone believe that the Dakota schools would leave a conference they own and control? We could be sitting at 10 for a long while. Furthermore, I have very strong doubts that MOST ISUr and UNI would jump to FBS, because the startup costs, increased scholarship funding, and increased travel costs would likely put severe strain on the budgets of these schools.

[VUGrad1314]

I disagree with football being the major driver for realignment. That may be true for the Big 12, but for the Horizon? But that doesn't really matter to the conversation at hand.

If the two teams can't be the reason why the WAC gets better, why would they be the reason the Horizon gets better? Or the MVC for that matter? Especially when one takes into account all the resasons you listed.

Football is still a massive driver of realignment at the MVC, Summit, OVC and HL levels. Most of the fans at this level are just too blind/ignorant to acknowledge and see it.

To show you how intertwined this all is I will involve the OVC, Summit, WAC, MVC, MVFC and potentially D2 and the NEC all from one move - Valpo to the MVC. A "non-football" school moving to a non-football conference.

1. Valpo moves to the MVC leaving a spot in the HL - a non football league

2. As part of the move the MVC indicates that a move to 12 is imminent and the heaviest favorite for spot 11 is a football school from the OVC - Murray State. Likely a portion of the reason the MVC didn't go to 12 with Murray State up from is the OVC not willing to let football stay an affiliate member and the MVFC no ready to add another member as soon as would be needed. (We'll get back to this real soon)

3. As a reaction to Valpo leaving the Horizon is exploring it's options - and added 1 already in IUPUI. That means the Summit (a conference already on the ledge of disaster due to the FB/non FB and geography split they are facing) is down a member. It seems far too logical to pass that IPFW isn't far behind on the Horizon train. That hurts the Summit even more - doubly so as IPFW as they play baseball and them leaving puts the Summit at 5 baseball schools, which triggers a 2 year probation period to get back to 6 baseball schools or lose the autobid.

Here's were it gets confusing and football really starts to play in as the Summit/OVC/WAC and even Big Sky start to come into it

4. The Summit is in trouble. They need baseball schools and members. Quality would be nice, but they likely won't get to be too picky. This likely is where the WAC and Summit try to cannibalize each other, with the Summit probably "winning". UMKC, UTRGV, Chicago State and the WAC disolving into the SL and WCC.

OR the Dakota's get what they want - and are pushing for - the Summit adds football as a sport. That means USD, SDSU, NDSU and UND (joining in 2020) are all gone from the MVFC. They likely grab Southern Utah, Northern Colorado, Weber State and maybe Cal Poly as a FB only member, and recreate the old Great West conference. This would also test NMSU's desire to continue FBS as an independant. The new SL would likely go after NMSU and GCU as well. This would have a massive impact in a couple ways

The WAC is dead. The Big Sky got smaller and lost football schools. The Missouri Valley is "okay", but the MVFC (an by proxy) got a bit shakey. Not too bad, but a bid. There are still enough members left for an autobid with UNI, SIU, ISUR, ISUB, YSU, MSU. It's possible that WIU gets to hang around as a 7th member as well - if the HL takes them with IPFW as part of their expansion

WIU won't be able to afford sending their teams to Utah, Arizona, Colorado, etc... multiple times per year. The Horizon makes sense for everyone.

The MVC then has an easier path to take Murray State as the football side opens up easier. That would give the MVFC 8 teams - UNI, SIU, ISUX2, MSU X2, YSU, and WIU. Best case would be for the MVC to add Stephen F Austin along with Murray State. That gives 9 football members (perfect number) to the MVFC and 12 to the MVC. Make football an MVC sport at that point. Start to insulate the schools from outside factors - like having half you members in a one sport conference that could implode at any moment because it's made of 3 other conferences (HL, MVC and SL).

Better yet, Drake and Valpo nut up and play big boy D1 football with the rest of us then add a school like UALR or UT-Arlington with Murray State. But that will never happen.

The OVC might grab WIU when Murray State becomes a MVC/MVFC member. They might grab a D2 move up. They could grab some ASUN/NEC teams (just like the HL)to fill holes in their membership.

I know that sounds extreme, but's not. The SL and WAC are on utter life support and when they implode it's going to get rocky around the MM level - and football will drive it to a large extent.

It's why I hate the MVC - especially Drake, UE, Bradley and possibly Valpo's stance on football schools. They see it as nothing except a drain that holds ADs back - yet as we've shown many times it's the schools with that attitude killing the MVC the last decade.

What the MVC should do is this

Bradley
Drake
Evansville
Illinois State
Indiana State
Loyola
Missouri State
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois
Valpo

PLUS
Murray State
Stephan F Austin

Let the Summit schools take their programs elsewhere. Have an MVFC of
Illinois State
Indiana State
Missouri State
Murray State
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois
Stephan F Austin
Youngstown State
Western Illinois - if they can work into the HL.

That's a real good basketball conference.
It's a good enough football conference for what it would need to be.
It keeps football schools happy.
The basketball side should be happy with additions like Valpo, Murray State and SFA to the basketball side of things.
Murray State and SFA have baseball.
SFA half gives Missouri State a semi regional travel partner.


However, we know that Drake and Evansville will never go for that.

I don't think that the Summit League is in as dire shape as you make it out to be. It's only a matter of time before UMKC returns, bringing another baseball playing school back in, The University of Central Oklahoma, a historically successful D2 school right within the Summit League's footprint, just received a sizeable donation that may allow its basketball program to go D1 that would add another baseball and football member (they'd have to figure out where to place their football team, but I believe this gets them to the minimum necessary for a league, that or they get absorbed into the MVFC, further complicating realignment matters. They may also get Utah Valley and UTRGV, but the point is although they are sure to lose Indiana as part of their footprint, and may well lose Western Illinois, this will only tighten their footprunt and strengthen their conference while the move westward makes them more likely to attract GCU and NMSU, particularly if the Summit outperforms the Horizon again.

[Mikovio]

Oral Roberts Barred Fired Coach From Recruiting Players With Tattoos, Subjected Recruits To "Faith Exam"

http://deadspin.com/oral-roberts-barred ... 1794236093

In 2008 the school was $52 million in debt, and only survived because the Hobby Lobby founder gave $72 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Robe ... .93present

I would sooner invite UALR or even UMKC before ORU. There just aren't many good options around Missouri State, besides SLU.

[Drakey]

Bears277 gets this, in spite of the fact that his school is one sponsoring FCS Football. Please not e that several of the other successful mid major teams mentioned who have football (Butler, Dayton) have non-scholarship football, which is a totally different thing cost-wise. One of the main reasons Drake has non-scholarship football is to get males on campus, which is becoming more and more difficult at a private school where the actual purpose is to get an education. The formula for success in mid major basketball is no football, or non scholarship football, and all emphasis on basketball. Just look at a complete list of schools with successful basketball programs who are not affiliated with FBS conferences. They almost all fit the mold. Don't forget to include the Big East, whose schools aren't dissimilar to other privates/non football schools, except for the fact that they all figured out a long time ago to focus on basketball. The two most successful programs in our conference have followed that formula and moved on. UNI has had the good fortune of having a coach who can win under any circumstances for the past decade, but long term, I think the most successful teams will be the privates. Loyola is already out recruiting the rest of the Valley with what would appear to be a mediocre coaching staff. Bradley is getting closer.

[Jsnhbe1Birds]

Good point about non scholarship football.

[mvfcfan]

Maybe I'm missing something, but Villanova has a football team that is FCS and they are good in both basketball and football.

Also non-scholarship football is not really non-scholarship. A lot of those guys are getting some kind of scholarship to play at Drake. They're just getting an academic scholarship of some kind rather than a full-ride athletic scholarship. Even with Drake's football team being non-scholarship, they still managed to finish last this past season in basketball. There are lots of teams without football that also awful in basketball.

Simply, just because you have football or don't have football, doesn't guarantee you will be good in basketball. I'd rather have both football and basketball though and at least be decent in one of them. I at least respect the fact that Valpo and Drake put football teams on the field even if it is Pioneer League (non-scholarship). If it came down to it, I'd rather my school (INST) be Pioneer League than not have football at all.

I guess the best thing about non-scholarship football is that you don't have to give out 63 additional scholarships for women's sports (that no one really cares about lbvs). I guess that would make it to where you only have to have the minimum amount of sports to stay D1, which is probably great for the athletic budget. I was looking at the sports we have at Indiana State and it looks like we use women's golf, women's soccer, and women's volleyball to even out the football scholarships. I'd definitely prefer that we stay scholarship in football though.