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specialsauce wrote:

Khan4Cats wrote:

Cdizzle wrote:They didn't play much better today. They had Janssen and played against WSU. And still lost by 16. Do you know how hard that is?

Janssen didn't do any favors to UNI unless you call letting the Shockers constantly get away with shuffle steps that have been called travels on UNI all year. Nurger was allowed to use his elbow to clear space down low as well.

You're absolutely, positively insane.

Right, because my team won by 16 and I'm still complaining about officiating? Sorry, baller, my team didn't play well enough to win yesterday. The officials did nothing to help them either. The game was called consistently throughout (though different than a lot of UNI's games this year). The only two flops in the game occurred by WSU players-one on Koch, one by a WSU player acting like he was shot flying out of bounds on a rebound that got a call from Janssen two seconds after the play occurred.

Just because you guys are used to watching the Jacobson-coached flop-fest every game doesn't mean it isn't still happening. WSU was whistled for 14 first half fouls. 14. And I'm supposed to believe that the athleticism and strength that WSU has that leads to all these fouls doesn't also cause problems for the opposition. It's laughable. You had Janssen single-handedly remove Willis and Morris from the game and then still proceeded to get owned by Nurger.

Complaining about Janssen officiating in a 16 point win demonstrates that it isn't sour grapes from a losing team. It's a man with an agenda, that for some reason buys Jacobson's brand of head-throwing and flopping.

Cdizzle wrote:Just because you guys are used to watching the Jacobson-coached flop-fest every game doesn't mean it isn't still happening. WSU was whistled for 14 first half fouls. 14. And I'm supposed to believe that the athleticism and strength that WSU has that leads to all these fouls doesn't also cause problems for the opposition. It's laughable. You had Janssen single-handedly remove Willis and Morris from the game and then still proceeded to get owned by Nurger.

Complaining about Janssen officiating in a 16 point win demonstrates that it isn't sour grapes from a losing team. It's a man with an agenda, that for some reason buys Jacobson's brand of head-throwing and flopping.

The Morgan flop was comical. Morgan extends his chest forward, initiating enough contact to bump Willis back, so Willis pushes back with his back and Morgan goes flying across the floor like he had been karate kicked. Janssen ignores the initial foul on Morgan then rewards the flop with a Foul on Willis.

Then there was the Clotheline on a rebound, that not only wasn't called a foul .. they called a travel on WSU ... How is he supposed to stand up when the UNI player grabs him around the neck and brings him to the ground? ... https://gfycat.com/MarvelousPhysicalCarp .. There is the video of this.

Then there was the tomahawk chop that Morgan did on McDuffie. It was an obvious INTENTIONAL foul to prevent a layup. The problem is that they didn't call it.

2livewu wrote:To the Redbird poster: Please tell me WSU's "bad" loss. I'm looking forward to your answer.

You are 100% correct, my bad. I was in my head considering the bad loss to be Oklahoma State because of how bad that beat-down was, but when referencing the numbers it's not as bad as it seems. I still don't think Oklahoma State is a good team, and I fully expected you to win that game (as did you guys)... that's probably why I slotted it that way in my head.

Again, in the context of the original discussion, we were discussing resumes and wondering who we should be pulling for right now in the Valley to run the table and lose in the Championship game in order to get 2 teams in since we all agree this is most likely a 1 bid conference right now.

Pertaining to that discussion, and that discussion alone, the numbers work out in favor of Illinois State this year, at this point in time. Here is the current breakdown of the resumes using RPI (Stickboy, when massey, etc. starts being more seriously used by the committee, we can start looking at those numbers, but those metrics aren't referenced at this present time.. but I do concede they favor Wichita currently):

Illinois State:
Current RPI - 46
Current SOS - 79
Wins by RPI - 59, 118, 128, 145, 158, 165, 169, 180, 194, 211, 320
Losses by RPI - 36, 159, 165, 226
Average RPI Win - 167.9
Average RPI Loss - 146.5
RPI should ISU run the table - 24
SOS should ISU run the table - 136

Wichita State:
Current RPI - 96
Current SOS - 251
Wins by RPI - 97, 139, 165, 167, 169, 170, 186, 200, 212, 261, 275, 278, 319
Losses by RPI - 9, 35, 54
Average RPI Win - 202.9
Average RPI Loss - 32.7
RPI should Wichita run the table - 31
SOS should Wichita run the table - 169

So in looking at the data above...

Best win - ISU
Best collection of wins - ISU (Wichita barely has a top 100 win and 6 of their wins come against 200+ teams)
Best loss - Wichita
Best collection of losses - Wichita (by a longshot)

ISU's RPI/SOS numbers are better after showing what would hypothetically happen should each team run the table, so for the purposes of the MVC's best chance at getting 2 in... the Valley should be rooting for ISU to do it.

It's all moot anyway, because no matter which side you look at, neither team gets in as an at large this year. It was a hypothetical exercise in who to root for to run the table, and the numbers back up my original claim.

I appreciate the discussion with the Wichita fans who can have intellectual ones such as this, and look forward to more. I'll be pulling for the Shockers in every single game but 2 this year (maybe 3 in St. Louis). Good luck to you guys!

Shaq committed some braindead fouls per usual, but a UNI fan claiming the only two flops were perpetrated by WSU is certainly lol. The Panthers biceps have a circumference equal to the wrists of most Shocker players, so it is simply good gameplanning to teach the toothpicks to drop like bowling pins when the ogres brush up against them. On the flipside, the Shockers absolutely got away with at least 3 uncalled travels and I was happy to take them.

I was glad to see Koch and Carlson show some signs of life. Carlson in particular looked like he was going to have a big game early, then he generally disappeared in the second half. The Panthers will need their post duo to reemerge as bullies down the stretch if they are going to recover their season.

BirdsEyeView wrote:

Stickboy46 wrote:Also please list out all the other rankings that are considered.. Kenpom , Massey, sagarin etc etc. Nearly all of those really love WSU

I'll answer this one as well...
You lead us on those.
However, how much weight has the NCAA Tourney Selection Committee actually placed on any of the above listed rankings? It seems like all they care about is RPI and top 50 wins. I never, ever hear them talk about Kenpom, Massey, Sagarin, etc. when they are defending (after the fact) the reasons for putting certain schools into the field over others.


I agree they should be used, but RPI and top 50 wins seems to be their barometer for justification....thus those others are just there for show, in my opinion, until they start using them within the committee.

Again, why are we arguing resumes 4 games into the conference season? Both teams are long shots at getting an at-large right now.
Stickboy, SpecialSauce, WuFan, etc should all be rooting for ISUr when not facing us and vice versa.

Sauce won't

You others can and should.

They have said multiple times in the last few years that those number are becoming more important and ARE discussed in the selection room.

That said, the problem is that they will pick and choose which numbers to use AFTER they make their decision. There is no rhyme or reason. They decide who they want in .. and then they come up with their reasoning after.

Stickboy46 wrote:They have said multiple times in the last few years that those number are becoming more important and ARE discussed in the selection room.

That said, the problem is that they will pick and choose which numbers to use AFTER they make their decision. There is no rhyme or reason. They decide who they want in .. and then they come up with their reasoning after.

Syracuse last year pretty much offers Exhibits A - ZZZ on this issue. Their resume was deficient in nearly every measure vis a vis other bubble teams, and the fact that they were not even subjected to the play-in round was probably the most egregious misstep by the Committee in a decade. The after-the-fact justification that Boeheim's missed games didn't count (when it was for punishment approved by the NCAA, not health reasons or other unforeseen circumstances) showed how far the Committee was willing to stretch to get the Orange in the field at the expense of a more deserving resume like, say, Monmouth.

Then, of course, they got hot and made a huge run to justify further future screwjobs.

Yeah, the ISUr/WSU at-large pissing match is probably a lot of wasted breath. But we shall see. Both teams need at least 16-2 in conference to have a chance, probably more likely 17-1. Both resumes will be terrible by the metrics the selection committee and talking heads like to use, so you're going to have to rely on getting 28-30 wins. Neither team has "good wins." ISU does have "bad losses." But like I said, I think these teams are gonna have to rely on 29-5 getting you in, not a resume that says "look at all my Top 50 wins" so I'm not sure it's worth comparing much. And in that regard, ISU is probably hurt a bit by already having 4 losses. If ISU goes, say 16-2, and loses in the STL finals, that'd be 26-7? I'd bet heavily on that not getting an at-large, even if the RPI says it should.

Khan4Cats wrote:
Right, because my team won by 16 and I'm still complaining about officiating? Sorry, baller, my team didn't play well enough to win yesterday. The officials did nothing to help them either. The game was called consistently throughout (though different than a lot of UNI's games this year). The only two flops in the game occurred by WSU players-one on Koch, one by a WSU player acting like he was shot flying out of bounds on a rebound that got a call from Janssen two seconds after the play occurred.

The sore is flowing your veins pretty steadily this morning.

The only reason the game was mercilessly kept within 16 was because of the gift-wrapped officiating you received. The game was closer to a 30 point win than a single-digit one. Your flop comments pretty much summed up your blinded, sore mindset.

Redbirdgrad wrote:

2livewu wrote:To the Redbird poster: Please tell me WSU's "bad" loss. I'm looking forward to your answer.

You are 100% correct, my bad. I was in my head considering the bad loss to be Oklahoma State because of how bad that beat-down was, but when referencing the numbers it's not as bad as it seems. I still don't think Oklahoma State is a good team, and I fully expected you to win that game (as did you guys)... that's probably why I slotted it that way in my head.

Again, in the context of the original discussion, we were discussing resumes and wondering who we should be pulling for right now in the Valley to run the table and lose in the Championship game in order to get 2 teams in since we all agree this is most likely a 1 bid conference right now.

Pertaining to that discussion, and that discussion alone, the numbers work out in favor of Illinois State this year, at this point in time. Here is the current breakdown of the resumes using RPI (Stickboy, when massey, etc. starts being more seriously used by the committee, we can start looking at those numbers, but those metrics aren't referenced at this present time.. but I do concede they favor Wichita currently):

Illinois State:
Current RPI - 46
Current SOS - 79
Wins by RPI - 59, 118, 128, 145, 158, 165, 169, 180, 194, 211, 320
Losses by RPI - 36, 159, 165, 226
Average RPI Win - 167.9
Average RPI Loss - 146.5
RPI should ISU run the table - 24
SOS should ISU run the table - 136

Wichita State:
Current RPI - 96
Current SOS - 251
Wins by RPI - 97, 139, 165, 167, 169, 170, 186, 200, 212, 261, 275, 278, 319
Losses by RPI - 9, 35, 54
Average RPI Win - 202.9
Average RPI Loss - 32.7
RPI should Wichita run the table - 31
SOS should Wichita run the table - 169

So in looking at the data above...

Best win - ISU
Best collection of wins - ISU (Wichita barely has a top 100 win and 6 of their wins come against 200+ teams)
Best loss - Wichita
Best collection of losses - Wichita (by a longshot)

ISU's RPI/SOS numbers are better after showing what would hypothetically happen should each team run the table, so for the purposes of the MVC's best chance at getting 2 in... the Valley should be rooting for ISU to do it.

It's all moot anyway, because no matter which side you look at, neither team gets in as an at large this year. It was a hypothetical exercise in who to root for to run the table, and the numbers back up my original claim.

I appreciate the discussion with the Wichita fans who can have intellectual ones such as this, and look forward to more. I'll be pulling for the Shockers in every single game but 2 this year (maybe 3 in St. Louis). Good luck to you guys!

Great Post