Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Cdizzle » January 11th, 2017, 3:44 pm

Redbirdgrad wrote:
Cdizzle wrote:Who changed what argument? And who lost an argument to begin with? I get so confused sometimes with all the grasping for relevance straws.


Who is grasping at relevance? You made a claim that was refuted with facts.

Original claim: Getting to the finals in St. Louis can involve beating 2 teams of questionable quality. It doesn't mean you suck, but that alone is a tremendously weak argument to be a 'good' team.

Refuted claim: See above posts with games and box scores of good, solid semifinal games showing those games weren't against teams of "questionable quality". This was shown as an understanding of where BirdsEyeView would have thought we had "good" teams to make the finals of those tourneys. "Bad" or even "mediocre" teams, don't win those 4 games I pointed out to you as examples.

You then tried to backtrack and say those were only "1 game" and you had to look at the season as a whole... then tried to reference where good teams may have laid an egg in "1 game" negating the stance you just took.

It's ok for a point you make to be wrong. I know you're used to winning everything under the sun, but being wrong about 1 point on a message board isn't the end of the world man.

Your conclusion assumes that bad and mediocre teams don't ever beat good and great teams. And that's a terrible assumption. Bad and mediocre teams beat good and even great teams. It happens all the time. One bad team doesn't do it a lot in one season, but lots of bad teams beat lots of good teams in aggregate.

I seem to have done a lot of 'backtracking' I don't remember. I suppose you also forgot to read the parts where I tried very hard to maintain thread civility and not direct my comments specifically at any given team. If you would really like to get into the specifics of relevance, mediocre/good/great both at the conference and national level, specific to the 2 teams you want to talk about, I'm game. But you're going to start not having any fun very quickly.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby SalukiHoops » January 11th, 2017, 3:52 pm

James_SIU wrote:Having gone to every SIU game the last 10 years I can't tell that we have a "rival" anymore. Obviously WSU games bring in the biggest crowds but other than that every game feels the same in the arena to me. The Blackout game seems to be a random opponent as well. It is all about the cancer research funding. Creighton was our only rival for years...really doesn't feel like we have a replacement.

Couldn't have said it better myself!
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby specialsauce » January 11th, 2017, 4:04 pm

Redbirdgrad wrote:
specialsauce wrote:Boy, it sure doesn't take long to get this guy out from under the rocks. Not a peep for nearly 24 hours until someone casted doubt on his beloved Redbirds and now he's running loose. Yah, speaking for not ever letting things go or for a rock to slip through the crack. Hi Pot. Meet Kettle.

There's my buddy! Finally!!!!
Yeah, it took me a bit to post and I'm sorry for not checking in with you before doing so.
I'm sorry I don't have 26,000 posts spanning a few different boards as well as many different names.
You know... things to do and all.

specialsauce wrote:Who would have the audacity to question the "goodness" of Illinois State based on two freaking wins in the Valley Tournament? The bar is being set pretty low here.
It's absolutely astonishing how some fans build up 3 days in St. Louis and think that is superior and out-of-worldly over a 3 month stretch of games.

Can someone on the shocker message board sit this kid down and teach him how to read? PLEASE?!? It's not even fun anymore debating him when he doesn't even grasp the topic at hand.
specialsauce wrote:But then again, when the argument doesn't favor you, it makes sense.


How on God's green earth would you know if an argument favors someone when you don't even understand the argument at hand?


You're really good at breaking apart posts without responding to any points in them. But then again, that's your thin-skinned, hypocritical nature.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby BirdsEyeView » January 11th, 2017, 4:07 pm

specialsauce wrote:
Redbirdgrad wrote:
specialsauce wrote:Boy, it sure doesn't take long to get this guy out from under the rocks. Not a peep for nearly 24 hours until someone casted doubt on his beloved Redbirds and now he's running loose. Yah, speaking for not ever letting things go or for a rock to slip through the crack. Hi Pot. Meet Kettle.

There's my buddy! Finally!!!!
Yeah, it took me a bit to post and I'm sorry for not checking in with you before doing so.
I'm sorry I don't have 26,000 posts spanning a few different boards as well as many different names.
You know... things to do and all.

specialsauce wrote:Who would have the audacity to question the "goodness" of Illinois State based on two freaking wins in the Valley Tournament? The bar is being set pretty low here.
It's absolutely astonishing how some fans build up 3 days in St. Louis and think that is superior and out-of-worldly over a 3 month stretch of games.

Can someone on the shocker message board sit this kid down and teach him how to read? PLEASE?!? It's not even fun anymore debating him when he doesn't even grasp the topic at hand.
specialsauce wrote:But then again, when the argument doesn't favor you, it makes sense.


How on God's green earth would you know if an argument favors someone when you don't even understand the argument at hand?


You're really good at breaking apart posts without responding to any points in them. But then again, that's your thin-skinned, hypocritical nature.


*eating popcorn*
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby specialsauce » January 11th, 2017, 4:09 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:
specialsauce wrote:It's absolutely astonishing how some fans build up 3 days in St. Louis and think that is superior and out-of-worldly over a 3 month stretch of games. But then again, when the argument doesn't favor you, it makes sense.


He's not building up 3 days in STL. He was defending my "good" team stance that was attempted to be refuted (which is a no-win argument anyways).

We want to get an at large bid just like you without relying on Arch Madness. The thread from Valley Game 4 with your back and forth arguments about this defends that end-game. If he didn't care about the at large, then that argument never happens.


You have to admit, it wasn't the best rationale to say that showing up on Sunday in St. Louis equates to "good". The whole body of work should be looked at, not 2 or 3 random games that ultimately end with a CIT appearance or no postseason at all.

By your rationale, Illinois State had a terrible year last year based on their one and done in St. Louis. Conversely, WSU had a subpar year last year because they lost on Saturday.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Redbirdgrad » January 11th, 2017, 4:20 pm

Cdizzle wrote:Your conclusion assumes that bad and mediocre teams don't ever beat good and great teams. And that's a terrible assumption. Bad and mediocre teams beat good and even great teams. It happens all the time. One bad team doesn't do it a lot in one season, but lots of bad teams beat lots of good teams in aggregate.

No, really that's not it at all. I think this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree which I'm fine with because you're abandoning the original statement. An ISU poster said we've had some "good" teams, but not "good enough" to get over the hump of the MVC finals. I backed that statement with years where we made the final beating a few really good Valley teams in the semifinal, with teams that were good themselves. I think you've projected the image of the Valley today (I agree... terrible) backwards to throughout it's history. We've had some pretty good upper tiers of Valley schools, and it's rare a "bad" team reaches the finals.
Yes, bad and mediocre teams beat good and great teams all the time, but in context of the discussion we were having, the Redbird posters point is very valid.

Cdizzle wrote:I seem to have done a lot of 'backtracking' I don't remember. I suppose you also forgot to read the parts where I tried very hard to maintain thread civility and not direct my comments specifically at any given team.

Nope, didn't forget at all. This is why I enjoy the back and forth with you. It really didn't matter which team you were talking about, in my examples I was just showing that throughout the last 10 years there were games in the semifinals where very good teams were beaten. It's difficult to find a final where there aren't two good Valley teams there. But yes, a sliding scale is being used because good is such a subjective word.

Cdizzle wrote:If you would really like to get into the specifics of relevance, mediocre/good/great both at the conference and national level, specific to the 2 teams you want to talk about, I'm game. But you're going to start not having any fun very quickly.

Really? Yeah man, let's take a look at how the 2 teams have faired nationally because that has SO much relevance to this conversation it's not even funny. Typical Shocker response right there.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Redbirdgrad » January 11th, 2017, 4:22 pm

specialsauce wrote:You're really good at breaking apart posts without responding to any points in them. But then again, that's your thin-skinned, hypocritical nature.


As soon as you make a point, you'll get a response.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby BirdsEyeView » January 11th, 2017, 4:24 pm

specialsauce wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:
specialsauce wrote:It's absolutely astonishing how some fans build up 3 days in St. Louis and think that is superior and out-of-worldly over a 3 month stretch of games. But then again, when the argument doesn't favor you, it makes sense.


He's not building up 3 days in STL. He was defending my "good" team stance that was attempted to be refuted (which is a no-win argument anyways).

We want to get an at large bid just like you without relying on Arch Madness. The thread from Valley Game 4 with your back and forth arguments about this defends that end-game. If he didn't care about the at large, then that argument never happens.


You have to admit, it wasn't the best rationale to say that showing up on Sunday in St. Louis equates to "good". The whole body of work should be looked at, not 2 or 3 random games that ultimately end with a CIT appearance or no postseason at all.

By your rationale, Illinois State had a terrible year last year based on their one and done in St. Louis. Conversely, WSU had a subpar year last year because they lost on Saturday.


Agreed. It was my lazy way of showing that we were "good" but not good enough. I needed to provide much more stats that I wasn't willing to look up over the last 10 years for ISUr.

From memory, I knew those teams were pretty good most of those years we made the finals. No fluke 6 seed making it all the way a la Indiana St. in Odum's Freshman year.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Cdizzle » January 11th, 2017, 4:33 pm

Careful calling wins in St. Louis flukes. Your friend's whole world might collapse. :buddies:
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Bmarq04 » January 11th, 2017, 4:53 pm

Redbirdgrad wrote:
Cdizzle wrote:Getting to the finals in St. Louis can involve beating 2 teams of questionable quality. It doesn't mean you suck, but that alone is a tremendously weak argument to be a 'good' team.


2014-2015 - defeated Evansville, #8 Ranked Wichita State http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400766594

2012-2013 - defeated Northern Iowa, #15 Ranked Wichita State
http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/320632724

2008-2009 - defeated Evansville, Creighton (26-7)
http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/290660156

2007-2008 - defeated Missouri State, Northern Iowa
http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/280682287

Can understand your point Cdizzle, but from the Birds history in making runs at these tourneys, we've always played someone pretty good in that 2nd game... You guys twice, while ranked nationally. A very solid Creighton team in 2008-2009. You have to go back to the 2007-2008 Northern Iowa team that was seeded 6th to find a game that wasn't a tough match-up to make your claim correct.


In the state of the current Valley? No, a Saturday win isn't anything to write home about (usually). But when you look back 10 years... there were some pretty good games and competition coming out of those semifinal games.


Although we had some good "runs" over a 2 day stretch here and there, I have to agree with others that it doesn't mean we were good. Out of those 4 years, I would only say we were good once.

In 14-15 we finished in 3rd, 4 games back from 2nd at 11-7. That is above average but doesn't do it for me.
In 12-13 we finished 6th at 8-10. That team SHOULD have been good but result paint a different picture.

In 08-09 we finished 3rd again at 11-7. Again, above average, but not necessarily good.

07-08 was good, but weird. That's the year Hell froze and Drake went apesh*t. The conference didn't have a great year, but that ISU team went 13-5 for 2nd in conference. They were actually good.

So ya, we have had some good "runs" in STL, but that doesn't make a team good. A conference tourney is usually 50% luck, 30% momentum, and 20% skill. The best team rarely even wins it every year.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Old School MVC » January 11th, 2017, 5:01 pm

Unless you talk to WSU folks, then it is 100% luck.....especially on Saturdays.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Play Angry » January 11th, 2017, 5:06 pm

Why is the original assertion that ISU has been "good" since it's last tournament appearance being backed up with citations to 4 tournament runs to the final game during an 18 year stretch? The merits of whether those wins in those specific conference tournaments make a team "good" have been discussed ad nauseum above, but the entire counterpoint using 2008, 2009, 2013 and 2015 as support to defend the assertion of being "good" over a near-two decade time span is either intellectually insincere or just a very poorly constructed argument.

An equally effective tactic would be to post ISUr's results from its 4 or 5 shittiest seasons during that same time span and somehow try to pretend that such proof conclusively refutes (lol) an assertion that ISUr was good during that much, much longer period. Multiple subsequent claims that any poster who disagree was checkmated or refuted (again, lol) by such "proof" would be, you guessed it, retarded. Because it is a very, very poor way to prove or disprove the original point.

In short, let's please argue more effectively.
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