MVCfans.com - All-MVC teams and honors

[2livewu]

Tru dat.

Maybe Hawk'll flash some more gang signs at the Valley for the snub.

I've got no beef with the picks. I'd have Hawkins or McIntosh on first team too but hey, understand what they're doing.

Lee's gonna win POY. ISUB guy voted for McDuffie and knowing there's a split WSU vote kills any chance they have to win, no doubt.

[Bball Junkie]

McIntosh a little unlucky with the injury.

Doyle had an injury in his sophomore year that eliminated the second half of his sophomore year and severely affected his junior year. Nobody talked about bad luck.

Yet despite missing almost half his sophomore year and still being affected by the injury in his junior year, he's currently got 1601 career points. For comparison, Ron Baker had 1636 points in his career. Doyle also has more career assists than any other player in the league besides Paris Lee (he's 16 assists behind), and has racked up the 15th most assists in the MVC since 1992-93.

This season, he's 2nd in total points scored, 3rd in points per game, 2nd in steals, 3rd in assists, 11th in blocks, and 13th in rebounds. If you're in to alternative metrics, he's 6th in player efficiency, 7th in effective field goal percentage, and 4th in usage percentage. Statistically or with an eye test, there isn't a more versatile player in the league.

Expanding his stat line against the BEST teams in the conference with the best defenders in the league (WSU/ISUr), Doyle was 20 for 60 from the field. 33%. And was 0-4.

Have you performed the same analysis across the board, comparing your favorite players only against the top teams in the league? Paris Lee was 5-for-19 against Loyola, 26%. He was 5-for-21 against Wichita State, 23.8%.

I posted Brown's stats against WSU and ISU in another post. People state the same about him as they do Doyle. If you're not WSU or ISU, you're not deserving of anything related to an individual award. Doyle is a great player as is Brown, so I am here to defend both of them. If WSU and ISU defense is that much better than the rest, why would Brown put up these stats against those two teams?

36.25 minutes
49.1 FG%
46.2 3PT%
85.3 FT%
3.25 Rebounds
3.25 Assists
1.75 turnovers
21.8 points

Blame it on a gimmick offense, ok.....if you think you know what's coming and who will get the shots, why not stop it? How is it possible for a player "not good enough" to play for those programs able to be so efficient against them? During the last UE vs WSU game, the ESPN3 announcers stated over and over how tough a match up Brown was for the Shockers and how efficient he has been against them. Those were not Aces fans words, they were WSU announcers words.

The Aces stunk this year, but Brown was great all season and throughout his career when Marty let him play to his strengths. Brown is not a motion offense guy per se but more of an athletic scoring PG/combo guard.

[BirdsEyeView]

Expanding his stat line against the BEST teams in the conference with the best defenders in the league (WSU/ISUr), Doyle was 20 for 60 from the field. 33%. And was 0-4.

Have you performed the same analysis across the board, comparing your favorite players only against the top teams in the league? Paris Lee was 5-for-19 against Loyola, 26%. He was 5-for-21 against Wichita State, 23.8%.

Lee was 5 for 17 against Loyola (not 19). He also had 13 assists to 3 turnovers against you. From a pg perspective, that's really good (4.3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio).

If you are arguing that Lee should not be first team over Doyle, then you are a clueless and very biased basketball fan.

[Cdizzle]

Blame it on a gimmick offense, ok.....if you think you know what's coming and who will get the shots, why not stop it?

Because 4-0 with a MoV of 16+ seemed like the winning game plan.

Glad to be having this conversation again.

I can't wait for the part when UE goes 5-0 against 2 D3 teams and 3 RPI 300+ teams again next December and UE fans are sure they are awesome .

[Blers]

The versatility argument doesn't really stick with me and just kinda seems like piling on. Outside Morgan none of those guys are going to have the best defender on them EVERY GAME. Teams know Ingram/Jackson can do damage, but Doyle's who teams key on.

Can Hawkins score more? Sure! Still carried less of the load and averaged less points. Rebound more? Definitely! Does he have the court vision? Well he had 3 assists.... TWICE! So... no. He was slightly behind in blocks and well behind in steals.

Can McIntosh score more? Sure! But he didn't do it on as regular a basis even before injury. Rebound more? slightly, I'll give this! Does he have the court vision? Well he had 4 assists.... TWICE! So... no. Slightly ahead in blocks, well behind in steals

McDuffie? - Same song as the previous two, though he definitely flashed court vision late in the season! I'm willing to concede he has potential to be more versatile but hasn't been asked to do so.

Johnson- Doesn't really work as a comparison as he's a big man. Definitely a better rebounder, iffy defender though, and hasn't really created for opposing players as often as you'd hope for a post man getting doubled, though he has in spurts!

Morgan-Probably the most apt comparison in terms of versatility, yet again not as good of a shot creator for others, but also had very few players to create shots for, better rebounder, excellent defender. Occasionally a great scorer but also had would occassionally disappear.

Honestly i'm disappointed you didn't bring up Shamet who's probably the most versatile guard in the league right now.

[goramblers2011]

I am happy we got snubbed by a player on our own side of the bracket. Gives Hawkins/McIntosh and even Wills and Lee an incentive to shut down Doyle on Saturday (assuming both teams win on Friday), while showcasing their own skills at Arch.

If being 'snubbed' from some ultimately meaningless postseason award is the incentive they need to (try to) shut Doyle down and not the fact that a loss possibly knocks them off the bubble...well, yeah...I am pretty sure they were fully motivated before being 'snubbed'.

You clearly have never coached a high level team in a sport before. Any perceived slight is a major motivator for individuals, beyond team goals.

Ha. And I'm sure you have a plethora of experience coaching athletes on a D-1 level. Coaching your local high school freshmen team doesn't count. Although with a piece of work like Hawkins, maybe his individual goals are more important than the team goals--he has shown his selfishness off the court numerous times.

[Cdizzle]

Honestly i'm disappointed you didn't bring up Shamet who's probably the most versatile guard in the league right now.

I think Shamet is better than Doyle. But right now I think that Doyle is more versatile than Shamet. Shamet doesn't drive for himself or for others just yet to really be a versatile guard in my mind. He's also not currently an elite defender (though he's certainly no worse than Doyle).

Guys like McIntosh, Hawkins, McDuffie, Johnson are very versatile because they can hurt you with the jump shot, off the dribble, or in the post. They are match-up nightmares.

I'm not anti-Doyle. He's a fine player. I just would have put him on the 2nd Team.

[Blers]

Expanding his stat line against the BEST teams in the conference with the best defenders in the league (WSU/ISUr), Doyle was 20 for 60 from the field. 33%. And was 0-4.

Have you performed the same analysis across the board, comparing your favorite players only against the top teams in the league? Paris Lee was 5-for-19 against Loyola, 26%. He was 5-for-21 against Wichita State, 23.8%.

Lee was 5 for 17 against Loyola (not 19). He also had 13 assists to 3 turnovers against you. From a pg perspective, that's really good (4.3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio).

If you are arguing that Lee should not be first team over Doyle, then you are a clueless and very biased basketball fan.

I think it's pretty fair to say that's projecting an argument that wasn't being made It’s just using your own stat tracking argument against you. Doyle had a 13 to 4 for a TO margin of 3.25 against WSU. But a less impressive 6-6 for 1 against ISUr.


Really what this should be is CONGRATS TO THE WINNERS. I'M OUT.

[BirdsEyeView]

Honestly i'm disappointed you didn't bring up Shamet who's probably the most versatile guard in the league right now.

I think Shamet is better than Doyle. But right now I think that Doyle is more versatile than Shamet. Shamet doesn't drive for himself or for others just yet to really be a versatile guard in my mind. He's also not currently an elite defender (though he's certainly no worse than Doyle).

Guys like McIntosh, Hawkins, McDuffie, Johnson are very versatile because they can hurt you with the jump shot, off the dribble, or in the post. They are match-up nightmares.

I'm not anti-Doyle. He's a fine player. I just would have put him on the 2nd Team.

Agree with everything Cdizzle just said.

[Cdizzle]

If being 'snubbed' from some ultimately meaningless postseason award is the incentive they need to (try to) shut Doyle down and not the fact that a loss possibly knocks them off the bubble...well, yeah...I am pretty sure they were fully motivated before being 'snubbed'.

You clearly have never coached a high level team in a sport before. Any perceived slight is a major motivator for individuals, beyond team goals.

Ha. And I'm sure you have a plethora of experience coaching athletes on a D-1 level. Coaching your local high school freshmen team doesn't count. Although with a piece of work like Hawkins, maybe his individual goals are more important than the team goals--he has shown his selfishness off the court numerous times.

Far be it from me to get in the way of some good Hawkins-bashing, but BirdsEye is right. Players and coaches at the level of Shamet/McIntosh/Hawkins are absolutely given additional motivation by these sorts of things. Their coaches will certainly even bring it up to them in an effort to fire them up.

It's like telling X that his rebounding stats were padded by the home stat-keeper.