MVCfans.com - All-MVC teams and honors

[BirdsEyeView]

Have you performed the same analysis across the board, comparing your favorite players only against the top teams in the league? Paris Lee was 5-for-19 against Loyola, 26%. He was 5-for-21 against Wichita State, 23.8%.

Lee was 5 for 17 against Loyola (not 19). He also had 13 assists to 3 turnovers against you. From a pg perspective, that's really good (4.3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio).

If you are arguing that Lee should not be first team over Doyle, then you are a clueless and very biased basketball fan.

I think it's pretty fair to say that's projecting an argument that wasn't being made It’s just using your own stat tracking argument against you. Doyle had a 13 to 4 for a TO margin of 3.25 against WSU. But a less impressive 6-6 for 1 against ISUr.


Really what this should be is CONGRATS TO THE WINNERS. I'M OUT.

He used stats, I countered his stats...

It doesn't matter, bias is bias.

[Rambler63]

If you are arguing that Lee should not be first team over Doyle, then you are a clueless and very biased basketball fan.

I am not making that argument. You made the argument that one player who's not from your team shouldn't be on the first team because of four games played against two teams. I made the point that using that methodology could even make a player from your team who's probably going to win confernce player of the year look unworthy. And then you ascribed a crazy conclusion to what I wrote and used that to call me clueless and biased.

And 5-for-17 against Loyola (a crappy team because Hawkins got the bailout foul call with 3.9 seconds left and a three pointer rimmed out from halfway down against ISU in Normal) is still a lower percentage (29.4%) than you're critizing Doyle for shooting against ISU and WSU.

[BirdsEyeView]

You clearly have never coached a high level team in a sport before. Any perceived slight is a major motivator for individuals, beyond team goals.

Ha. And I'm sure you have a plethora of experience coaching athletes on a D-1 level. Coaching your local high school freshmen team doesn't count. Although with a piece of work like Hawkins, maybe his individual goals are more important than the team goals--he has shown his selfishness off the court numerous times.

Far be it from me to get in the way of some good Hawkins-bashing, but BirdsEye is right. Players and coaches at the level of Shamet/McIntosh/Hawkins are absolutely given additional motivation by these sorts of things. Their coaches will certainly even bring it up to them in an effort to fire them up.

It's like telling X that his rebounding stats were padded by the home stat-keeper.

Very true Cdizzle, except the level isn't that important as long as it's high-end, serious competition.

GoRamblers...As a matter of fact I have coached hundreds of scholarship athletes (many division 1 included) in high school who travel the country to play elite level competition. The age (college or high school) is not a factor in this argument. What you don't understand, clearly, is that from a coaches perspective is we have to get the optimal performance out of each INDIVIDUAL player to reach our team goals. Some players are motivated in different ways (coach yelling vs encouraging vs who we are facing, etc.), however in my 9 years of this, the one factor that ALWAYS motivates every player is a perceived slight, especially in awards.

Look at it this way, if someone told you that you were not as good at your job as someone else, wouldn't you work harder to show that you are better...especially if a promotion or raise were at stake?

[BirdsEyeView]

If you are arguing that Lee should not be first team over Doyle, then you are a clueless and very biased basketball fan.

I am not making that argument. You made the argument that one player who's not from your team shouldn't be on the first team because of four games played against two teams. I made the point that using that methodology could even make a player from your team who's probably going to win confernce player of the year look unworthy. And then you ascribed a crazy conclusion to what I wrote and used that to call me clueless and biased.

And 5-for-17 against Loyola (a crappy team because Hawkins got the bailout foul call with 3.9 seconds left and a three pointer rimmed out from halfway down against ISU in Normal) is still a lower percentage (29.4%) than you're critizing Doyle for shooting against ISU and WSU.

Okay, apologies to you. However, just to provide reasoning for my selective criteria, I used those two teams because they are by far the best two teams in this league. Performances against Drake, for example, mean much less than against Wichita State.

[Rambler63]

If you are arguing that Lee should not be first team over Doyle, then you are a clueless and very biased basketball fan.

I am not making that argument. You made the argument that one player who's not from your team shouldn't be on the first team because of four games played against two teams. I made the point that using that methodology could even make a player from your team who's probably going to win confernce player of the year look unworthy. And then you ascribed a crazy conclusion to what I wrote and used that to call me clueless and biased.

And 5-for-17 against Loyola (a crappy team because Hawkins got the bailout foul call with 3.9 seconds left and a three pointer rimmed out from halfway down against ISU in Normal) is still a lower percentage (29.4%) than you're critizing Doyle for shooting against ISU and WSU.

Okay, apologies to you. However, just to provide reasoning for my selective criteria, I used those two teams because they are by far the best two teams in this league. Performances against Drake, for example, mean much less than against Wichita State.

Fair enough. Congratulations on a conference co-championship, a #1 seed, 1 first team member (and probable POTY winner), 2 2nd team members, a member of the all newcomer team, and two members of the all-defensive team.

[goramblers2011]

Very true Cdizzle, except the level isn't that important as long as it's high-end, serious competition.

GoRamblers...As a matter of fact I have coached hundreds of scholarship athletes (many division 1 included) in high school who travel the country to play elite level competition. The age (college or high school) is not a factor in this argument. What you don't understand, clearly, is that from a coaches perspective is we have to get the optimal performance out of each INDIVIDUAL player to reach our team goals. Some players are motivated in different ways (coach yelling vs encouraging vs who we are facing, etc.), however in my 9 years of this, the one factor that ALWAYS motivates every player is a perceived slight, especially in awards.

Look at it this way, if someone told you that you were not as good at your job as someone else, wouldn't you work harder to show that you are better...especially if a promotion or raise were at stake?

I've coached high school athletes who went to play in college (D1 included), as well. Although the number of D1 athletes is in the tens, not the "hundreds" for me--and the sport was lacrosse. My top players were motivated more by team goals and taught not to pay attention to the individual stuff--and it seemed to work quite well for them.

In a situation like this, this argument is amplified. There should be absolutely no need for any additional motivation for any ISUr player--their motivation levels should be at a maximum just at the chance of going to the tourney.

But I suppose this argument is somewhat pointless. We can't see into the minds of these "snubbed" players. Arch Madness will play out as it will.

Congrats to all members of the All-MVC teams--a worthy and talented bunch.

[Blers]

One player i'm actually excited to see coming off a "snub" is Dequon Miller who seems to be proactive in using it as motivation: https://twitter.com/DMiller__4/status/8 ... 6918519808

[Cdizzle]

Those who talk about being snubbed in public

(A) Often were not the ones that got snubbed
(B) Often are not the ones able to put said "snub" to good use.

[Stickboy46]

One player i'm actually excited to see coming off a "snub" is Dequon Miller who seems to be proactive in using it as motivation: https://twitter.com/DMiller__4/status/8 ... 6918519808

Guaranteed 10+ ill advised shots for MSU by Miller in their first game.

[BirdsEyeView]

Those who talk about being snubbed in public

(A) Often were not the ones that got snubbed
(B) Often are not the ones able to put said "snub" to good use.

Agreed, but that's certainly exhibit A for "goramblers"

Perceived slight...whether real or imagined to provide motivation.