Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

Postby TheAsianSensation » April 17th, 2017, 10:06 pm

This is shades of the Big East breakup with 8 basketball schools and 8 football schools.

Basketball runs the place, and if the MVCF has to absorb Murray St...that's not exactly a choice for the football guys. If they want, the Summit can go start their own football, with blackjack and hookers.

But of course...then Murray St wouldn't have a home for the football team if they move to the MVC.

I think the talk between the MVC and MVCF needs to happen, if it hasn't already. Both need to lay out their long-term plans, so that the MVC can change the plans of the MVCF since this is a basketball-first conference.
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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

Postby uniftw » April 18th, 2017, 7:09 am

TheAsianSensation wrote:This is shades of the Big East breakup with 8 basketball schools and 8 football schools.

Basketball runs the place, and if the MVCF has to absorb Murray St...that's not exactly a choice for the football guys. If they want, the Summit can go start their own football, with blackjack and hookers.

But of course...then Murray St wouldn't have a home for the football team if they move to the MVC.

I think the talk between the MVC and MVCF needs to happen, if it hasn't already. Both need to lay out their long-term plans, so that the MVC can change the plans of the MVCF since this is a basketball-first conference.
Summit can't start football - they don't have 6 football members for an AQ - UND, USD, SDSU, NDSU, WIU. That's only 5.

Murray State would join the MVC/MVFC which would still be fine - UNI, SIU, ISUr, ISUb, YSU, MoSU and MuSU. YSU isn't going to go with the Dakota's and WIU. 7 isn't an ideal number for a conference when it comes to scheduling - especially with FBS games getting harder to get in the upper midwest, but it can be done. YSU would actually love to dump the Dakota's. The distance between them is, well, astonishing. Straight line Youngstown is closer to Orlando FL, Tampa FL, Monroe AR, Tulsa OK, Manhattan KS, Matane New Brunswick Canada, Liverpool Nova Scotia Cananda, and the site where the Titanic sank isn't significantly further into that Atlantic than it is Fargo and Grand Forks. YSU was also in the league with the exact same schools (minus Murray State) pre Dakota's. Hell, the Pioneer League - where Drake and Valpo play (and a potential home for Murray State if they don't want to support MVFC football) is kind of on shakey ground. The PFL stretches from Jacksonville, FL to Des Moines, IA to San Diego, CA. The schools in the Southeast are starting to really get pushed for membership by the Big South, who is down to 6 members. Now the the PFL is a playoff conference the "non-scholarship" thing is becoming a problem. They want to be competitive, so almost all are skirting the rules and it's caused their champion to be held out of the playoffs in 3 of their 4 years in as a playoff league due to breaking scholarship rules. I've long wanted Drake in the MVC. Landing Murray State and then letting Drake and Valpo into the league as football members and supporting at whatever level they want would make it REAL easy to let the Dakota's do their own thing if they want to try. We'd have 9 members. That creates a true round robin 8 game conference schedule with 3 OOC games to fill. A perfect schedule.

The Summit's only hope for a football league would be convincing at least Northern Cololardo, Southern Utah and Weber State to leave the Big Sky for their new league. Big Sky is so big they likely don't let them leave as football only affiliates of the Big Sky. They drop them all together.

Want to know what that new basketball league looks like? It's a minimum of a 13 team league if no one leaves to get enough football members. 6 is minimum for an autobid, but filling 5 or 6 OOC games will kill a conference real quick. Here's the new league foot print. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1I2VnO ... sp=sharing

You'd likely see a mass exit of the Indiana schools trying to get into the Horizon/OVC. At that point, if Belmont/Valpo wanted to stay where they are their one bid league shares just got smaller from splitting the pot more ways.

Oh, why couldn't the MVFC just hand control over to the Summit and the league stays the same? Doesn't fix the problems the MVC/MVFC/Summit are facing right now. Just shifts power from the MVFC to the Summit - which would hurt MVC members even more as the conference office now doesn't have to consider the MVC (unlike being a "subsidiary" of the MVC like now).

Oh, and there's the fact the NCAA likely isn't going to just go "Oh, you want to start a new conference? Perfect. We've always wanted more conferences to have to look after and maintain.". Also, the Summit is dangerously close to the conference membership stability requirements. Adding 3 new schools and potentially losing the Indiana schools would likely push the NCAAs buttons pretty hard



I think most/all of us on this site - or Valley Talk back in the day - saw what was happening with the Big East, and then what happened with the Big East, and knew the day was coming for us but hoped the league would do something to ensure that it didn't. Well, the league didn't do anything. The "best" move right now is for the MVC to absorb the MVFC. Make it a conference sponsored sport. It protects the current MVFC/MVC schools. Make a promise to YSU that they will always have a home as an affiliate member. That keeps the league at 7 if the Summit wants to do their own thing at some point. The ensured safety of the football schools is what is needed. Once that is ensured the mission of the MVC can be made as a basketball run league that sponsors football at the FCS level. If the Summit teams don't like it then they can form their 3 time zone monster league and try to attain a bid or they can deal with the fact they have a stable home for football.
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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

Postby Redhawk » April 18th, 2017, 7:48 am

This ^

That would definitely resolve the MVC/MVFC issues.
Could Drake and Valpo support scholarship Football?
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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

Postby uniftw » April 18th, 2017, 8:01 am

Redhawk wrote:This ^

That would definitely resolve the MVC/MVFC issues.
Could Drake and Valpo support scholarship Football?

If the MVC was smart - they don't have too.

Let them play by whatever rules they want. See Georgetown and the Patriot League. Until about 5 years ago the Patiriot League operated under the same rules as the Ivy and Pioneer leagues. They moved to scholarship football, but Georgetown still stays at non-scholarship. They get crushed week in and week out, draw about 37 people to a game and what not, but they have their football. AAMOF, they are "upgrading" their "stadium". I won't get into the details of that entire mess here, but at least they are putting some money into it.

It's weather or not Drake and Valpo would want to deal with what would come from playing in a scholarship league in terms of competitiveness. Drakes run over the last decade or so, against MVFC level opponents hasn't been great. They've lost to a handful of D2/NAIA teams as well. Valpo is significantly worse than Drake. Might legitimately be one of the 5-10 worst team in D1. They wouldn't be top 75% in D3. For SnGs I ran a 100 game nuetral site sim between last years Valpo and UNI teams. Worst UNI team in nearly 2 decades. UNI won 100 of them by an average score of 67-0. UNI/Drake runt he same way? UNI wins 99 of them by an average score of 53-6. Valpo regularly play on the road at D3 and NAIA schools. Until the NCAA cracked down on it they played schools like College of Faith - teams that had 13 players on the entire roster.

This is their football stadium, it seats the same as their basketball arena and averages less fans - http://cdn.streamlinetechnologies.com/v ... /5474M.jpg

I'm not sure we can get either/both to go for it thought. It'd be great if we could. Drake likes to sell the fact they are D1 football and use the "mystique" of Drake and how they are on an equal level with UNI for football and hold the all time series head to head record - because of games played 40+ years ago when UNI was D2. Since 1985 the average score for UNI is something like 41-6 in the games we've been able to play against them. They want to hide that they aren't UNI level though, so getting a game with them is nearly impossible.

It we can sell it as protecting the MVC and strengthening the MVC as a basketball league, we might be on to something though.
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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

Postby Redhawk » April 18th, 2017, 8:17 am

Yes...very interesting concept of a new MVC football conference.

Drake & Valpo would have to play 7 games against the scholarship members if YSU stays.
Then would play each other and hopefully 2 other closer Pioneer teams each year...
Dayton, Butler or Morehead. Leaves one open slot for a D2/D3.
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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

Postby uniftw » April 18th, 2017, 8:26 am

Redhawk wrote:Yes...very interesting concept of a new MVC football conference.

Drake & Valpo would have to play 7 games against the scholarship members if YSU stays.
Then would play each other and hopefully 2 other closer Pioneer teams each year...
Dayton, Butler or Morehead. Leaves one open slot for a D2/D3.

Exactly

8 conference games - 7 against scholarship teams
1 "buy" road game against another FCS scholarship team
1 "buy" home game vs a D2/NAIA
1 H/H set up with programs like Dayton, Butler, Duquesne, Morehead State, or anyone of their choosing.

It's a stretch, and requires intentionally alienating the Summit members, which is why it's a stretch, but it is an option that should be looked at. Maybe it shouldn't be looked at until/if the Summit wants to create it's own conference BUT the MVC swallowing the MVFC should happen no matter what.
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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

Postby DoubleJayAlum » April 18th, 2017, 8:33 am

TheAsianSensation wrote:Valpo might get St Louis'd out of the MVC. (St Louis is allegedly the next candidate for the Big East, but don't have a chance as the Big East can't find a good 12th team. I wonder if we don't add an 11th team because we can't find a solid option to be the 12th team)


The Big East not adding St Louis U has nothing to do with not being able to find a 12th team; the reason SLU doesn't receive any consideration currently is because they suck at basketball. At the time the C7 broke off and formed the new league, SLU (the university, not the basketball program) was also headed by a person with an insanely huge ego that could not work and play well with others. While he has finally departed, they currently have some significant financial issues, that in conjunction with their poor basketball program, leaves them far off the radar at the moment.

If UConn wanted in the Big East (and found something to do with football or eliminated it entirely) the Big East would add them in a New York minute, willingly going with 11 schools and eliminating the current private school only structure. Short of that, I think the Big East is content just waiting to see what happens when the Big 12's TV contract comes up for renewal in a few years.
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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

Postby Redhawk » April 18th, 2017, 8:38 am

uniftw wrote:
It's a stretch, and requires intentionally alienating the Summit members, which is why it's a stretch, but it is an option that should be looked at.


If we add Valpo and Murray State we will be alienating the Horizon League and OVC.
So why not piss off the Summit at the same time? If we truly are their "big brother" isn't that
what we are supposed to do?
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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

Postby uniftw » April 18th, 2017, 9:03 am

Redhawk wrote:
uniftw wrote:
It's a stretch, and requires intentionally alienating the Summit members, which is why it's a stretch, but it is an option that should be looked at.


If we add Valpo and Murray State we will be alienating the Horizon League and OVC.
So why not piss off the Summit at the same time? If we truly are their "big brother" isn't that
what we are supposed to do?

Sure.

However, there is something to be said for the strength, and 4 decade long history of the MVFC/Gateway to be a "welcoming" home for FCS programs in the upper midwest that didn't directly step on anyone's toes.

When you are clearly the big dog you can afford to step on toes and put fire near bridges. When you might be the biggest dog (but maybe not clearly the "big dog"), it's best to take a more diplomatic appraoch.
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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

Postby tribecalledquest » April 18th, 2017, 9:47 am

TheAsianSensation wrote:This is shades of the Big East breakup with 8 basketball schools and 8 football schools.

Basketball runs the place, and if the MVCF has to absorb Murray St...that's not exactly a choice for the football guys. If they want, the Summit can go start their own football, with blackjack and hookers.

But of course...then Murray St wouldn't have a home for the football team if they move to the MVC.

I think the talk between the MVC and MVCF needs to happen, if it hasn't already. Both need to lay out their long-term plans, so that the MVC can change the plans of the MVCF since this is a basketball-first conference.


The MVC and MVCF are basically the same people. They don't operate in separate universes.
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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

Postby Veritas » April 19th, 2017, 6:06 am

tribecalledquest wrote:
TheAsianSensation wrote:This is shades of the Big East breakup with 8 basketball schools and 8 football schools.

Basketball runs the place, and if the MVCF has to absorb Murray St...that's not exactly a choice for the football guys. If they want, the Summit can go start their own football, with blackjack and hookers.

But of course...then Murray St wouldn't have a home for the football team if they move to the MVC.

I think the talk between the MVC and MVCF needs to happen, if it hasn't already. Both need to lay out their long-term plans, so that the MVC can change the plans of the MVCF since this is a basketball-first conference.


The MVC and MVCF are basically the same people. They don't operate in separate universes.


If that's true, then the negative comment made by the MVCF commissioner towards WSU's suggestion of putting a football team in the conference along with keeping the other sports in the MVC, should raise questions about her ability and judgement.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.inforum. ... ates%3Famp
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Re: Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

Postby unipanther99 » April 19th, 2017, 8:48 am



Why should she be supportive of a school wanting to use her conference as a jumping point to another conference? Her job is to maintain a stable, high-quality FCS conference. Not an incubator for schools with FBS aspirations. A school who would then leave the flagship all-sport conference as well.

There are reasons to criticize Patty, but I don't think this comment is one of those reasons.
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