How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Cdizzle » April 6th, 2017, 12:08 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:
We went from a season two years ago where first and second team players were all Seniors. Last year, was a major transition season, simply based on the quality of players the conference lost.

Sort of. Generally speaking, the league was in line with what it has been since Creighton left the league. http://kenpom.com/blog/2017-mvc-tournament-forecast/

BirdsEyeView wrote:Generally speaking, I hear you. But, you Shocker fans continue to act like the other schools don't want to get better....they do....they need to hire the right coach or avoid major transfers that killed their progress (Reggie Lynch, Marcus Marshall, Nic Moore, Jordan Caroline, Josh Cunningham).

Wishing to get better and doing something about it are 2 different things. If all the programs in this league were serious about getting better, Simmons and Lusk would not still be head coaches.

BirdsEyeView wrote:WSU hit a grand slam on their coach (2x) and now the fans act like they are the billy bad asses of the block. You did nothing, your AD/President did. It's not a magic formula.

I didn't pick the coaches, you're right about that. But implying that the fanbase did nothing is beyond ignorant. Illinois State just completed their best season in 20 years. And that led to average attendance of 300 more than WSU drew in the worst year in the depths of 90s futility. Demanding that the department strive for excellence, and backing it up with attendance and cash is a hell of a lot more than "nothing." Paying for season tickets, making scholarship donations, making donations to the new arena, all after 15+ years of terrible on-the-court product is more than nothing. It has a lot to do with why Marshall came here. And it has a WHOLE lot to do with why Marshall is still here.

There are a lot more people on this board that like to pretend WSU fans came in to existence in 2013 than there are WSU fans claiming they are the reason the program is where it is right now.

BirdsEyeView wrote:Everyone will get better. I guarantee you that.

On what timeline? Every single MVC team is going to magically improve over the next 3 seasons? 5 seasons? Half of this board likes to remind WSU fans that "everything goes in cycles, you'll be back on the bottom again soon." You're going with the guarantee that all the MVC teams are going to magically go on an up-cycle at the same time? After losing the 2 best programs in the league? That's a bold (to use a nice word) take.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Stickboy46 » April 6th, 2017, 12:30 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:
Cdizzle wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:
Everyone needs to get better. I think they will.

Why now? Suddenly, after 10 years of decay and losing most of the available in-conference opportunities to gain resume wins, everyone will wake up tomorrow and say "hey, I know, lets go get better!"?


We went from a season two years ago where first and second team players were all Seniors. Last year, was a major transition season, simply based on the quality of players the conference lost.

Generally speaking, I hear you. But, you Shocker fans continue to act like the other schools don't want to get better....they do....they need to hire the right coach or avoid major transfers that killed their progress (Reggie Lynch, Marcus Marshall, Nic Moore, Jordan Caroline, Josh Cunningham). WSU hit a grand slam on their coach (2x) and now the fans act like they are the billy bad asses of the block. You did nothing, your AD/President did. It's not a magic formula.

Everyone will get better. I guarantee you that.


I wouldn't say NOTHING. Having really good fan support even through the bad times helped land (and keep) a good coach and helps with recruits. Definitely not all of it, but can't say that the fans didn't do anything.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby BirdsEyeView » April 6th, 2017, 12:43 pm

Cdizzle wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:
We went from a season two years ago where first and second team players were all Seniors. Last year, was a major transition season, simply based on the quality of players the conference lost.

Sort of. Generally speaking, the league was in line with what it has been since Creighton left the league. http://kenpom.com/blog/2017-mvc-tournament-forecast/

BirdsEyeView wrote:Generally speaking, I hear you. But, you Shocker fans continue to act like the other schools don't want to get better....they do....they need to hire the right coach or avoid major transfers that killed their progress (Reggie Lynch, Marcus Marshall, Nic Moore, Jordan Caroline, Josh Cunningham).

Wishing to get better and doing something about it are 2 different things. If all the programs in this league were serious about getting better, Simmons and Lusk would not still be head coaches.

BirdsEyeView wrote:WSU hit a grand slam on their coach (2x) and now the fans act like they are the billy bad asses of the block. You did nothing, your AD/President did. It's not a magic formula.

I didn't pick the coaches, you're right about that. But implying that the fanbase did nothing is beyond ignorant. Illinois State just completed their best season in 20 years. And that led to average attendance of 300 more than WSU drew in the worst year in the depths of 90s futility. Demanding that the department strive for excellence, and backing it up with attendance and cash is a hell of a lot more than "nothing." Paying for season tickets, making scholarship donations, making donations to the new arena, all after 15+ years of terrible on-the-court product is more than nothing. It has a lot to do with why Marshall came here. And it has a WHOLE lot to do with why Marshall is still here.

There are a lot more people on this board that like to pretend WSU fans came in to existence in 2013 than there are WSU fans claiming they are the reason the program is where it is right now.

BirdsEyeView wrote:Everyone will get better. I guarantee you that.

On what timeline? Every single MVC team is going to magically improve over the next 3 seasons? 5 seasons? Half of this board likes to remind WSU fans that "everything goes in cycles, you'll be back on the bottom again soon." You're going with the guarantee that all the MVC teams are going to magically go on an up-cycle at the same time? After losing the 2 best programs in the league? That's a bold (to use a nice word) take.


Not going to derail this thread from its intended purpose too far. A few comments...

Generally speaking, the league can't get worse than it was last year from teams #3-10. So yes it will get better from those 8 schools. ISUr likely takes a step backwards.

Your fan base did not have a ton to do with Marshall coming there. GM left a low major program, Winthrop, to upgrade himself to a mid-major program that had recent success with Turgeon (the reason your fan interest increased). Don't flatter yourself with the fact that your fans commitment was the reason Marshall came. No, Turgeon set the stage with success that started your fans showing up AND Marshall came from a smaller school where he could get a pay raise in a conference that recently had 4 teams make the tournament a few years prior (2006).

Correct me if that is wrong?

Illinois State have very fair weather fans, but we are in a transient town with State Farm hiring a bunch of implants with no ties to the local University. However, in Muller's playing days, when we had a consistent showing of success over a few years, our attendance was much, much higher. You need a few consistent years of success for a nice turnaround. We have had 1 year.


Again the hire of two great coaches in a row catapulted WSU. Evansville is an anomaly. Drake is trying and failing. Lusk should just be an assistant because he gets good players, but is a terrible X's and O's guy. Bradley finally got a guy. ISUr has a good one. UNI has a good one. SIU, meh.

You guys enjoy the AAC and leave the future of the MVC to the remaining 9 teams. No need to kick us on your way out.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Svoboda » April 6th, 2017, 1:41 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:Hire an under the radar low major coach. Have him build your program for 3-4 years with recruits. You don't think within 5 years that budget issues won't get fixed?

Take Bradley, I think they hired a good one. In a few years, I think they are back to contending in this conference. Now, let's say a Big 10 school hires him away....in 3-4 years. Don't you think the landscape of not only college basketball, but the financial issues in Illinois will be getting fixed by then??


No, no I don't. Almost every MVC team has seen their subsidies increase over the last 10 years. Feel free to check out the NCAA finances database over at USA Today. For example, Indiana States went from being 65% to 75% since 2005.

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

And you think hiring an up and coming mid-major coach is going to right that ship? So when WSU pulls up their anchors and all of our programs lose 2 Top 50 RPI games in favor of someone likely to be in the 100-200 range, then you have all of these "up and coming low major" coached Valley teams splitting series because "everyone got better" -- what is the net result? Still a one bid league.

Look, I don't want to dampen your optimism or enthusiasm, but this is the same sort of nonsense I get from the delusional members on my site that think we should be in a conference with Butler and Xavier, who think we should fire Greg Lansing when his winning percentage is 10% better than most of our previous coaches and our historical Valley averages all the while not wanting to donate or buy season tickets.

Does. Not. Compute.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Cdizzle » April 6th, 2017, 1:48 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:Not going to derail this thread from its intended purpose too far. A few comments...

Generally speaking, the league can't get worse than it was last year from teams #3-10. So yes it will get better from those 8 schools. ISUr likely takes a step backwards.

How many straight years does the league get to say this?

BirdsEyeView wrote:Your fan base did not have a ton to do with Marshall coming there. GM left a low major program, Winthrop, to upgrade himself to a mid-major program that had recent success with Turgeon (the reason your fan interest increased). Don't flatter yourself with the fact that your fans commitment was the reason Marshall came. No, Turgeon set the stage with success that started your fans showing up AND Marshall came from a smaller school where he could get a pay raise in a conference that recently had 4 teams make the tournament a few years prior (2006).

Correct me if that is wrong?

Here are the attendance numbers the 4 years prior to Turgeon being hired:
9449
7691
7358
7393

That's after 15 years of crap. You don't think that gives the AD the money and the pressure to keep looking for a new coach? You don't think that looks attractive to an incoming coach? WSU also funded the arena renovation before there was a sniff of success. You're getting the order of success and fan support messed up because it is what you are used to living. You say yourself teams need a few consistent years of success for a nice turnaround. I'm saying that wasn't necessarily true at WSU, and the numbers back it up. Does it help to continue building and maintain? Absolutely.


BirdsEyeView wrote:Again the hire of two great coaches in a row catapulted WSU. Evansville is an anomaly. Drake is trying and failing. Lusk should just be an assistant because he gets good players, but is a terrible X's and O's guy. Bradley finally got a guy. ISUr has a good one. UNI has a good one. SIU, meh.

You're claiming that everything will get better. But then you go and list 3 out of 9 teams right away that are problems. Evansville is an anomaly (ie, they aren't trying). Lusk shouldn't be the head coach at MSU (ie, they aren't trying). SIU has a coach that isn't going to help the team or league be relevant (ie, they aren't trying). Bradley is definitely trying. So is UNI. ISUr might have a decent coach, time will tell. Right now he's 5 years in with a co-championship and no NCAA appearances. Drake is trying, but at a level that interests very few coaches. Loyola is riding a guy that already flamed out of the league once. I'm not sure what to call what InSt is doing.

It doesn't take several years of performance before support everywhere. Take Illinois State this year. It's embarrassing that the average home attendance was 5943 in a 25-5 (17-1) regular season that saw a league title race and at-large contention. For a super eye-opening and depressing point of reference, Drake averaged more fans (6038) in 2008 in their one year wonder when they went 25-4 (15-3) and won the league.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Stickboy46 » April 6th, 2017, 1:56 pm

Svoboda wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:Hire an under the radar low major coach. Have him build your program for 3-4 years with recruits. You don't think within 5 years that budget issues won't get fixed?

Take Bradley, I think they hired a good one. In a few years, I think they are back to contending in this conference. Now, let's say a Big 10 school hires him away....in 3-4 years. Don't you think the landscape of not only college basketball, but the financial issues in Illinois will be getting fixed by then??


No, no I don't. Almost every MVC team has seen their subsidies increase over the last 10 years. Feel free to check out the NCAA finances database over at USA Today. For example, Indiana States went from being 65% to 75% since 2005.

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

And you think hiring an up and coming mid-major coach is going to right that ship? So when WSU pulls up their anchors and all of our programs lose 2 Top 50 RPI games in favor of someone likely to be in the 100-200 range, then you have all of these "up and coming low major" coached Valley teams splitting series because "everyone got better" -- what is the net result? Still a one bid league.

Look, I don't want to dampen your optimism or enthusiasm, but this is the same sort of nonsense I get from the delusional members on my site that think we should be in a conference with Butler and Xavier, who think we should fire Greg Lansing when his winning percentage is 10% better than most of our previous coaches and our historical Valley averages all the while not wanting to donate or buy season tickets.

Does. Not. Compute.


Also in 3 to 4 years, the Yearly Multiple NCAA credits will start coming to an end, which is additional financial pressure on each school.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby BirdsEyeView » April 6th, 2017, 1:56 pm

Svoboda wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:Hire an under the radar low major coach. Have him build your program for 3-4 years with recruits. You don't think within 5 years that budget issues won't get fixed?

Take Bradley, I think they hired a good one. In a few years, I think they are back to contending in this conference. Now, let's say a Big 10 school hires him away....in 3-4 years. Don't you think the landscape of not only college basketball, but the financial issues in Illinois will be getting fixed by then??


No, no I don't. Almost every MVC team has seen their subsidies increase over the last 10 years. Feel free to check out the NCAA finances database over at USA Today. For example, Indiana States went from being 65% to 75% since 2005.

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

And you think hiring an up and coming mid-major coach is going to right that ship? So when WSU pulls up their anchors and all of our programs lose 2 Top 50 RPI games in favor of someone likely to be in the 100-200 range, then you have all of these "up and coming low major" coached Valley teams splitting series because "everyone got better" -- what is the net result? Still a one bid league.

Look, I don't want to dampen your optimism or enthusiasm, but this is the same sort of nonsense I get from the delusional members on my site that think we should be in a conference with Butler and Xavier, who think we should fire Greg Lansing when his winning percentage is 10% better than most of our previous coaches and our historical Valley averages all the while not wanting to donate or buy season tickets.

Does. Not. Compute.


Really, it's all blind optimism from me on hoping state budgets are fixed within 5 years. Probably a pipe dream given what has happened up to this point in Illinois.

I guess, then sell a potential added school on it's past history and maybe they fall for it. It's like a car salesman trying to sell a customer a used 2010. Sure, it's not the new body style and doesn't have all the new features...but maybe, it's got what they want.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby BirdsEyeView » April 6th, 2017, 2:24 pm

Cdizzle wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:Not going to derail this thread from its intended purpose too far. A few comments...

Generally speaking, the league can't get worse than it was last year from teams #3-10. So yes it will get better from those 8 schools. ISUr likely takes a step backwards.

How many straight years does the league get to say this?

BirdsEyeView wrote:Your fan base did not have a ton to do with Marshall coming there. GM left a low major program, Winthrop, to upgrade himself to a mid-major program that had recent success with Turgeon (the reason your fan interest increased). Don't flatter yourself with the fact that your fans commitment was the reason Marshall came. No, Turgeon set the stage with success that started your fans showing up AND Marshall came from a smaller school where he could get a pay raise in a conference that recently had 4 teams make the tournament a few years prior (2006).

Correct me if that is wrong?

Here are the attendance numbers the 4 years prior to Turgeon being hired:
9449
7691
7358
7393

That's after 15 years of crap. You don't think that gives the AD the money and the pressure to keep looking for a new coach? You don't think that looks attractive to an incoming coach? WSU also funded the arena renovation before there was a sniff of success. You're getting the order of success and fan support messed up because it is what you are used to living. You say yourself teams need a few consistent years of success for a nice turnaround. I'm saying that wasn't necessarily true at WSU, and the numbers back it up. Does it help to continue building and maintain? Absolutely.


Sure, but I was referencing Marshall being hired. He came in because of a pay increase, an already established program from Turgeon, and an opportunity to take the next step.

You fans can try to take some credit, but you can argue fan interest led you to Turgeon, not Marshall.

But, Turgeon, money and a good conference at the time led you to Marshall. At the end of the day, the secret formula is to find a "diamond in the rough" coach that a mid-major MVC school can get to build their program.

BirdsEyeView wrote:Again the hire of two great coaches in a row catapulted WSU. Evansville is an anomaly. Drake is trying and failing. Lusk should just be an assistant because he gets good players, but is a terrible X's and O's guy. Bradley finally got a guy. ISUr has a good one. UNI has a good one. SIU, meh.


Cdizzle wrote: You're claiming that everything will get better. But then you go and list 3 out of 9 teams right away that are problems. Evansville is an anomaly (ie, they aren't trying). Lusk shouldn't be the head coach at MSU (ie, they aren't trying). SIU has a coach that isn't going to help the team or league be relevant (ie, they aren't trying). Bradley is definitely trying. So is UNI. ISUr might have a decent coach, time will tell. Right now he's 5 years in with a co-championship and no NCAA appearances. Drake is trying, but at a level that interests very few coaches. Loyola is riding a guy that already flamed out of the league once. I'm not sure what to call what InSt is doing.

It doesn't take several years of performance before support everywhere. Take Illinois State this year. It's embarrassing that the average home attendance was 5943 in a 25-5 (17-1) regular season that saw a league title race and at-large contention. For a super eye-opening and depressing point of reference, Drake averaged more fans (6038) in 2008 in their one year wonder when they went 25-4 (15-3) and won the league.


I am claiming that we are at a low point right now for the conference when 3rd place was 9-9 last year (8 games back...most likely a record). Literally, we have nowhere to go but up from that debacle for those 3-10 teams. Coaching should take care of itself and that is not something for you to worry about. We were already a 1 bid league this year, losing WSU doesn't change that. We need improvement from all other conference members to make up the loss collectively.

By the way, this all started because you claimed that schools were "after 10 years of struggling going to wake up tomorrow and say "hey, I know, lets go get better!"?
I think they are waking up every day trying to get better. It's not some kind of epiphany that they're like oh this is what we are supposed to do...get better. Who would have known!?

That's just you considering all MVC schools to be stupid, as you rip the conference on your way out the door, while at the same time, take credit that WSU is so much better at this than everyone else.

The only thing WSU is better at is spending more money on basketball AFTER your school found the success they found to maintain it. It helps having billionaire alums whose name is on your basketball stadium as well.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby uniftw » April 6th, 2017, 2:33 pm

Stickboy46 wrote:
unipanther99 wrote:
Pinkie wrote:Honest question here: what are the primary selling points the Valley has at their disposal when trying to lure the best possible expansion candidates? Without WSU the league looks a lot like some of the other mid major leagues and convincing a quality school to leave behind established relationships and probably NCAA credits to join the MVC could be more difficult than some imagine.


The selling point for the MVC is the opportunity for an at-large bid if you have an excellent season and don't win your conference tournament. By no stretch guaranteed, but the possibility at least exists. Not so much in lower conferences.


17-1 with a win over WSU and only loss to WSU is what ISU just did .. Wasn't enough. Take WSU out? ummm not sure how you are getting an at-large that you couldn't get in any other conference (non-conf schedule only)

Illinois State also had a relatively putrid OOC resume to prop up the MVC issues this year. They also had two gigantic albatross losses to WSU to weigh them down - one of which was national TV and the final game before the NCAA tournament.

Had ISUr not crapped the bed against a poor OOC schedule they'd have been in.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Play Angry » April 6th, 2017, 2:37 pm

I enjoy ISUr fans lecturing Wichita State fans on the catalysts that led to Shocker coaching hires over the last 15 years. Very informative and not silly at all.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby BirdsEyeView » April 6th, 2017, 2:42 pm

Play Angry wrote:I enjoy ISUr fans lecturing Wichita State fans on the catalysts that led to Shocker coaching hires over the last 15 years. Very informative and not silly at all.


You could say the same about your fan bases influence on said hires, as if you guys know.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Play Angry » April 6th, 2017, 2:54 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:
Play Angry wrote:I enjoy ISUr fans lecturing Wichita State fans on the catalysts that led to Shocker coaching hires over the last 15 years. Very informative and not silly at all.


You could say the same about your fan bases influence on said hires, as if you guys know.


I imagine it had as much to do as fan bases at most other schools with comparable attendance and financial support. A terrific percentage of our programs are funded by that fanbase, so, yes, it certainly plays a significant role.

Why so combative this week?
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