How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby BirdsEyeView » April 6th, 2017, 3:02 pm

Play Angry wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:
Play Angry wrote:I enjoy ISUr fans lecturing Wichita State fans on the catalysts that led to Shocker coaching hires over the last 15 years. Very informative and not silly at all.


You could say the same about your fan bases influence on said hires, as if you guys know.


I imagine it had as much to do as fan bases at most other schools with comparable attendance and financial support. A terrific percentage of our programs are funded by that fanbase, so, yes, it certainly plays a significant role.

Why so combative this week?


I'm really not trying to be, I just hate when fans assume they had a helping hand in things or are the "know-it-alls" on how to be a good basketball program.

I have strong beliefs that Football has very little impact on their basketball programs
I have strong beliefs that MVC schools all understand what it takes to become consistently good, but just make erroneous hires that set them back many years

That's all.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Cdizzle » April 6th, 2017, 3:03 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:By the way, this all started because you claimed that schools were "after 10 years of struggling going to wake up tomorrow and say "hey, I know, lets go get better!"?
I think they are waking up every day trying to get better. It's not some kind of epiphany that they're like oh this is what we are supposed to do...get better. Who would have known!?

Exactly! If they are waking up every day trying to get better, and it is still getting worse, why do you think it's magically going to be better going forward? Blind optimism? It's the same people doing the same work.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Stickboy46 » April 6th, 2017, 3:14 pm

uniftw wrote:
Stickboy46 wrote:
unipanther99 wrote:
The selling point for the MVC is the opportunity for an at-large bid if you have an excellent season and don't win your conference tournament. By no stretch guaranteed, but the possibility at least exists. Not so much in lower conferences.


17-1 with a win over WSU and only loss to WSU is what ISU just did .. Wasn't enough. Take WSU out? ummm not sure how you are getting an at-large that you couldn't get in any other conference (non-conf schedule only)

Illinois State also had a relatively putrid OOC resume to prop up the MVC issues this year. They also had two gigantic albatross losses to WSU to weigh them down - one of which was national TV and the final game before the NCAA tournament.

Had ISUr not crapped the bed against a poor OOC schedule they'd have been in.


Not the point. Any team can get in with a really good OOC schedule. The point is the MVC isn't really selling at-large bids to people.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Redhawk » April 6th, 2017, 3:17 pm

Cdizzle wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:By the way, this all started because you claimed that schools were "after 10 years of struggling going to wake up tomorrow and say "hey, I know, lets go get better!"?
I think they are waking up every day trying to get better. It's not some kind of epiphany that they're like oh this is what we are supposed to do...get better. Who would have known!?

Exactly! If they are waking up every day trying to get better, and it is still getting worse, why do you think it's magically going to be better going forward? Blind optimism? It's the same people doing the same work.


Yep...blind optimism. Just like the 17 years and 4 coaching changes that the Shockers went through
between NCAA appearances till Turgeon got them dancing again!
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby musiccitybulldog » April 6th, 2017, 3:19 pm

I remember sitting at the kitchen table in 1969 listening to Jim Zabel of WHO in Des Moines announcing the Drake-WSU game. Jim said the place was packed and how hard it was to win there. So I guess I learned while young Wichita was a hard place to play and the locals were "into it".

I'll never forget I had a flying WSU player diving for a ball and knock me into next week at Des Moines in the early 80's. He ended up playing pro basketball.

It seems these folks at WSU have been loyal for years. I have always enjoyed talking with them at the tournament.

Good Luck! It's been fun watching/listening all these years.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby BirdsEyeView » April 6th, 2017, 3:24 pm

Cdizzle wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:By the way, this all started because you claimed that schools were "after 10 years of struggling going to wake up tomorrow and say "hey, I know, lets go get better!"?
I think they are waking up every day trying to get better. It's not some kind of epiphany that they're like oh this is what we are supposed to do...get better. Who would have known!?

Exactly! If they are waking up every day trying to get better, and it is still getting worse, why do you think it's magically going to be better going forward? Blind optimism? It's the same people doing the same work.



College basketball is cyclical with recruiting. Just getting 1 or 2 difference makers (given you only play 5 at once) can catapult your team into relevance.

I also think every school, but Evansville is trying, even Drake. They just suck at hiring coaches...maybe this new guy will do it for them. That's my optimism.

By the way, South Florida was 7-23 last year (316 RPI!!!). Tulane was 6-25(298 RPI!!!). East Carolina has never been good either (214 RPI). So you won't be immune to bottom feeders in the AAC either.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Play Angry » April 6th, 2017, 3:25 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:
Play Angry wrote:
I imagine it had as much to do as fan bases at most other schools with comparable attendance and financial support. A terrific percentage of our programs are funded by that fanbase, so, yes, it certainly plays a significant role.

Why so combative this week?


I'm really not trying to be, I just hate when fans assume they had a helping hand in things or are the "know-it-alls" on how to be a good basketball program.

I have strong beliefs that Football has very little impact on their basketball programs
I have strong beliefs that MVC schools all understand what it takes to become consistently good, but just make erroneous hires that set them back many years

That's all.


I understand the pro-FCS football argument and think that for certain schools, football serves as a strong compliment to the other programs in the athletic department and is a true asset to the university. Other schools probably should consider cutting bait depending on their financial situation, fan support, mission and a myriad of other issues. No real one-size-fits all there.

I don't really disagree that MVC schools understand what it takes to become consistently good - there are so many blueprints out there, I think everyone can see what successful programs have in common. I do disagree that erroneous hires are the primary factor holding some schools back.

Bradley is probably the example that best supports your point. They generally do all the "right" things (sufficient budget, good fan support, etc.) but have been submarined by a mediocre Les hire and a bad Ford hire. Totally agreed there - this is a program whose long-term expectations should be much, much higher than what they've recently put on the court.

It's not that certain schools don't want to be good. Instead, they've prioritized their budget allocations and development/redevelopment projects on their campuses in a way that (i) makes it harder to catch lightning in a bottle to begin with since that school is not viewed as much of a destination from a facilities/fan support/budget/etc. standpoint, thereby attracting a less competitive (this is poorly worded but I think the point still works) candidate for a position, and (ii) makes it harder to swiftly reallocate their budget resources to pay what it takes to keep that coach if they do catch lightning in a bottle since the reallocation to line items would be incredibly drastic. It's just sort of the nature of the beast.

The programs operating on a shoestring would love to dance every year, and some of them put a decent product on the court considering those limitations, so in a sense they are "trying." In another sense, until the President and AD at those schools prioritize those programs to a degree that substantially raises their chances for success, both short-term and long-term, they aren't fully committed and could be characterized as "not trying."

Luck and chance always play into it too, and that's a big part of what makes sports fun - otherwise everything would just go to the highest bidder. I do think there is a lot that some MVC schools could be doing that would further their causes for athletics. I also understand when enrollment, state budgets and other factors necessitate otherwise.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby FeartheQ » April 6th, 2017, 3:28 pm

Let's say New Mexico State is interested in joining the Valley (basketball and Olympic sports, keeping football in the belt). Would it be worth the travel to add them? I'm just not seeing a lot out there that is making this an easy decision. Also, not sure a lot of people are willing to up and leave for a Valley that appears to be down right now.

I still think the best thing to do is add 3 schools. If we could add 3 schools that are consistently above average (top 150) that might give us enough upside to stay ahead of some of these other mids that have been closing in on us. As someone posted earlier, we have to fix the problems at home too. We need teams like Bradley, MSU, SIU to improve as well.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby uniftw » April 6th, 2017, 3:30 pm

Stickboy46 wrote:Not the point. Any team can get in with a really good OOC schedule. The point is the MVC isn't really selling at-large bids to people.

It kind of is the point though. ISUr was one of the first four 8. They were right there.

What kept them out? A loss to Murray State was was 14-17 and had an RPI of 230.

Their OOC schedule was RPIs of
67
86
94
132
132
164
178
201
218
230
299

They were 1-2 against the top 100. 2-4 against the top 163.

Their issue wasn't the MVC. Their issue was that they played a pretty bad OOC schedule, didn't beat the teams at the top of it and lost to the second worst team they played. They don't lose to Murray State, they are in. They beat TCU they are in. They beat San Francisco they are likely in. They don't lose to WSU by a billion points twice? They are in.

Hell, even with everything the way it was, if they don't lose to WSU by 20 in the conference title game, they are in.

Yes, I would agree the window for error is smaller. The at-large possibility is there. Yes. It's going to take a top 2/3 finish in the conference. It will take not flopping in "must win" type games in the OOC. It's still possible.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby uniftw » April 6th, 2017, 3:31 pm

FeartheQ wrote:Let's say New Mexico State is interested in joining the Valley (basketball and Olympic sports, keeping football in the belt). Would it be worth the travel to add them? I'm just not seeing a lot out there that is making this an easy decision. Also, not sure a lot of people are willing to up and leave for a Valley that appears to be down right now.

I still think the best thing to do is add 3 schools. If we could add 3 schools that are consistently above average (top 150) that might give us enough upside to stay ahead of some of these other mids that have been closing in on us. As someone posted earlier, we have to fix the problems at home too. We need teams like Bradley, MSU, SIU to improve as well.

NMSU is out of the Sun Belt after this year. They are going to go Indy for football and pray for a MWC invite at some point.

NMSU would be a great add if they were interested. UALR, NMSU, Belmont would all be pretty good additions.
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Stickboy46 » April 6th, 2017, 3:36 pm

Redhawk wrote:
Cdizzle wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:By the way, this all started because you claimed that schools were "after 10 years of struggling going to wake up tomorrow and say "hey, I know, lets go get better!"?
I think they are waking up every day trying to get better. It's not some kind of epiphany that they're like oh this is what we are supposed to do...get better. Who would have known!?

Exactly! If they are waking up every day trying to get better, and it is still getting worse, why do you think it's magically going to be better going forward? Blind optimism? It's the same people doing the same work.


Yep...blind optimism. Just like the 17 years and 4 coaching changes that the Shockers went through
between NCAA appearances till Turgeon got them dancing again!


So 4 coaches in 17 years mean they tried a new coach every ~4 years when they saw it wasn't working.

Evansville is headed to their 11th year of Simmons with no NCAA/NIT = Not Trying

MSU is headed to their 7th year of Lusk without any NCAA/NIT on record. = Not Trying

SIU headed to thier 6th year of Hinson with no postseason = Not Trying

ISUb head to their 7th season of Lansing with a steady decline in performance since his first year. 3 years since an NIT and 6 since an NCAA = Kinda trying?

Loyola gets a pass due to being a recent addition and at least looks to be upping its recruiting

ISUr and UNI are obviously trying

Bradley and Drake have made changes to show they are trying.

So you have half the league that appears to be ok with being mediocre ...
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Re: How does the MVC sell itself to expansion candidates?

Postby Cdizzle » April 6th, 2017, 3:40 pm

uniftw wrote:
Stickboy46 wrote:Not the point. Any team can get in with a really good OOC schedule. The point is the MVC isn't really selling at-large bids to people.

It kind of is the point though. ISUr was one of the first four 8. They were right there.

What kept them out? A loss to Murray State was was 14-17 and had an RPI of 230.

Their OOC schedule was RPIs of
67
86
94
132
132
164
178
201
218
230
299

They were 1-2 against the top 100. 2-4 against the top 163.

Their issue wasn't the MVC. Their issue was that they played a pretty bad OOC schedule, didn't beat the teams at the top of it and lost to the second worst team they played. They don't lose to Murray State, they are in. They beat TCU they are in. They beat San Francisco they are likely in. They don't lose to WSU by a billion points twice? They are in.

Hell, even with everything the way it was, if they don't lose to WSU by 20 in the conference title game, they are in.

Yes, I would agree the window for error is smaller. The at-large possibility is there. Yes. It's going to take a top 2/3 finish in the conference. It will take not flopping in "must win" type games in the OOC. It's still possible.

People keep saying "their issue wasn't the MVC" about WSU and ISU. That's true, if you expect teams, even really great teams, to go undefeated. I think that's an unfair ask. The fact that Illinois St. lost to Murray St. really hurt them. The fact that after losing to Murray St., the 2/3 of their schedule they can't control left them hardly any opportunities to make up for it, ended them. That's sad.
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