MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team league

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Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea

Postby ValpoTX » April 28th, 2017, 11:31 pm

Bigdfromuic wrote:You may very well be right Valpotx...you may not slow down. But it seems to me Valpo has already hit their ceiling with their best player of all time finishing up his career without an NCAA win to show for it. UIC is in a better location, and despite being horrific in basketball for many years, has already landed 3-4 star recruits under McClain. Facilities do mean something...so does location...we've shown we can fill the seats when we're good. We put 8k in the Pavilion against GT after our last tourney appearance. We've had numerous 5k plus games since with horrible teams. I'm not saying Valpo isn't worthy of an invite...if basketball success is priority #1 for the MVC, you're a lock. I'm mostly just saying the silence regarding UIC is odd, and consideration of UWM over UIC is borderline laughable. Fans here and some bloggers have taken PantherU's bait and rolled with it.

For those MVC fans that love that apparent holier than thou Wichita attitude, you're gonna get more of that from Valpo. Hell some of them even know how annoying they sound...thinking their private status puts them above everyone else in the HL. I mean they're not so bad for a regional university, but come on.


We won the HL in back-to-back seasons before Alec joined our roster, and would be poised to stay near the top in a rebuilding year next season. You are correct that UIC has recruited well, but when you turn over much of your roster each year to transfers, it doesn't matter.

In regards to the private school view, there are some that view it as being above others, yes. My view is that I would rather my school be in an athletic conference that has other schools with a similar profile. There are only 2 in the HL (with Valpo included), and 4 others in the MVC. There used to be 4 when we first joined the HL, but Butler and Loyola moved on. When any issues come up between schools in regards to the private vs. public divide, we would rather have more allies in those discussions.
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Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea

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Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea

Postby SMUfan » April 29th, 2017, 6:00 am

TOPSTRAIGHT wrote:Various media reports indicated visits are over.Murray,Omaha,UWM,and Valparaiso were the only four visited and the teams admitted will come from that list.The game is over.Now it is just a matter of deciding who and how many from THOSE FOUR.



The "only four" or the only four we know of? What if they visited somewhere last year and didn't need to go back again? Just feels like there is more to it to me.
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Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea

Postby MOST » April 29th, 2017, 7:41 am

Not sure I understand the appeal of adding Valpo and Murray State to the MVC. Both are good BB schools, but no ways near the status of WSU or Creighton. Simply put, two topped out mid majors from the #17 HL and #19 OVC--not the teams or towns that are going to raise the MVC schools or BB profile. The MO State President said he voted to invite Loyola because Chicago was a big market that enhanced MOST' name recognition and the potential for increased enrollments from C area students--two clearly defined university president voting reasons. But, I doubt that Valparaiso, IN (pop: 32,000+) or Murray. KY (pop: !8,000) is going to enhance any schools brand or generate MOST enrollments.
If the intent is the same now as it was 5 years ago when Loyola was added then the MVC needs to push to add schools in big market cities: U. Wisconsin Milwaukee, U. MO Kansas City, U. Nebraska Omaha, and if still a possibility Belmont in big market Nashville. Wisconsin Green Bay may also be a possible add but they are small, 6,000 enrollment--but a better 2017 RPI and record than Wisc Milwaukee.
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Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea

Postby Bjhracer » April 29th, 2017, 8:04 am

MOST wrote:Not sure I understand the appeal of adding Valpo and Murray State to the MVC. Both are good BB schools, but no ways near the status of WSU or Creighton. Simply put, two topped out mid majors from the #17 HL and #19 OVC--not the teams or towns that are going to raise the MVC schools or BB profile. The MO State President said he voted to invite Loyola because Chicago was a big market that enhanced MOST' name recognition and the potential for increased enrollments from C area students--two clearly defined university president voting reasons. But, I doubt that Valparaiso, IN (pop: 32,000+) or Murray. KY (pop: !8,000) is going to enhance any schools brand or generate MOST enrollments.
If the intent is the same now as it was 5 years ago when Loyola was added then the MVC needs to push to add schools in big market cities: U. Wisconsin Milwaukee, U. MO Kansas City, U. Nebraska Omaha, and if still a possibility Belmont in big market Nashville. Wisconsin Green Bay may also be a possible add but they are small, 6,000 enrollment--but a better 2017 RPI and record than Wisc Milwaukee.


The appeal is because the MVC needs basketball schools that will compete in the top half of the conference. What exactly would adding Omaha or UMKC do? It would add schools that would struggle to have a winning record thus lowering conference ranking and cause loss of recognition and notoriety . Sure those schools are in larger markets but they will never draw the fan base and local support valpo and Murray state have, without a substantial increase in basketball budget. And still even then you are building a fanbase and tradition from the bottom up. Taking valpo and Murray would mean the fanbase the tradition, the national name recognition is already well established. And those schools have proven to invest in basketball. A move to the MVC gas great potential to move these teams up quicker to that upper echelon we want for the entire conference. Multiple bids and more ncaa shares
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Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea

Postby Mikovio » April 29th, 2017, 8:14 am

Bjhracer wrote:
MOST wrote:Not sure I understand the appeal of adding Valpo and Murray State to the MVC. Both are good BB schools, but no ways near the status of WSU or Creighton. Simply put, two topped out mid majors from the #17 HL and #19 OVC--not the teams or towns that are going to raise the MVC schools or BB profile. The MO State President said he voted to invite Loyola because Chicago was a big market that enhanced MOST' name recognition and the potential for increased enrollments from C area students--two clearly defined university president voting reasons. But, I doubt that Valparaiso, IN (pop: 32,000+) or Murray. KY (pop: !8,000) is going to enhance any schools brand or generate MOST enrollments.
If the intent is the same now as it was 5 years ago when Loyola was added then the MVC needs to push to add schools in big market cities: U. Wisconsin Milwaukee, U. MO Kansas City, U. Nebraska Omaha, and if still a possibility Belmont in big market Nashville. Wisconsin Green Bay may also be a possible add but they are small, 6,000 enrollment--but a better 2017 RPI and record than Wisc Milwaukee.


The appeal is because the MVC needs basketball schools that will compete in the top half of the conference. What exactly would adding Omaha or UMKC do? It would add schools that would struggle to have a winning record thus lowering conference ranking and cause loss of recognition and notoriety . Sure those schools are in larger markets but they will never draw the fan base and local support valpo and Murray state have, without a substantial increase in basketball budget. And still even then you are building a fanbase and tradition from the bottom up. Taking valpo and Murray would mean the fanbase the tradition, the national name recognition is already well established. And those schools have proven to incest in basketball. A move to the MVC gas great potential to move these teams up quicker to that upper echelon we want for the entire conference. Multiple bids and more ncaa shares


Yep. These will be basketball adds, as they should be. They will increase the likelihood the Valley gets 2 bids, or at least will ensure that if we get one bid, it gets a decent seed (think that 12 sweetspot or better) and therefore wins more games and garners more NCAA shares that way.

I still like the Loyola add, which I see as a worthy project. They're the richest school in the conference, so if they ever catch fire, they'll be positioned well to sustain it. Moser is getting good recruits, has them competitive and got a big extension (which helps recruiting further). At least if he faceplants they could buy him out. Chicago is a pro sports town but attendance will come if they catch fire, like Butler did in Indy. Plus it helps the rest of the Valley recruit Chicago, academically and athletically. Milwaukee brings that to the table too.
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Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea

Postby ptownbraves » April 29th, 2017, 8:20 am

MOST wrote:Not sure I understand the appeal of adding Valpo and Murray State to the MVC. Both are good BB schools, but no ways near the status of WSU or Creighton. Simply put, two topped out mid majors from the #17 HL and #19 OVC--not the teams or towns that are going to raise the MVC schools or BB profile. The MO State President said he voted to invite Loyola because Chicago was a big market that enhanced MOST' name recognition and the potential for increased enrollments from C area students--two clearly defined university president voting reasons. But, I doubt that Valparaiso, IN (pop: 32,000+) or Murray. KY (pop: !8,000) is going to enhance any schools brand or generate MOST enrollments.
If the intent is the same now as it was 5 years ago when Loyola was added then the MVC needs to push to add schools in big market cities: U. Wisconsin Milwaukee, U. MO Kansas City, U. Nebraska Omaha, and if still a possibility Belmont in big market Nashville. Wisconsin Green Bay may also be a possible add but they are small, 6,000 enrollment--but a better 2017 RPI and record than Wisc Milwaukee.


You add Valpo or Murray because their basketball programs are better than the bigger market schools on the table. To add UWM, UMKC, UNO, or UIC to tap into the bigger market over schools like Valpo or Murray State would be watering down the league and creating a lower quality product. Loyola has surpassed my expectations basketball-wise since they've been a member, but the value of big markets to the rest of the league is questionable when there isn't much fan support. Has enrollment in Valley schools increased from Chicago-area kids since Loyola has been a member? I'd like to know that answer but I'd be surprised if it's significant.
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Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea

Postby thunderkwb » April 29th, 2017, 8:46 am

Bigdfromuic wrote:You may very well be right Valpotx...you may not slow down. But it seems to me Valpo has already hit their ceiling with their best player of all time finishing up his career without an NCAA win to show for it. UIC is in a better location, and despite being horrific in basketball for many years, has already landed 3-4 star recruits under McClain. Facilities do mean something...so does location...we've shown we can fill the seats when we're good. We put 8k in the Pavilion against GT after our last tourney appearance. We've had numerous 5k plus games since with horrible teams. I'm not saying Valpo isn't worthy of an invite...if basketball success is priority #1 for the MVC, you're a lock. I'm mostly just saying the silence regarding UIC is odd, and consideration of UWM over UIC is borderline laughable. Fans here and some bloggers have taken PantherU's bait and rolled with it.

For those MVC fans that love that apparent holier than thou Wichita attitude, you're gonna get more of that from Valpo. Hell some of them even know how annoying they sound...thinking their private status puts them above everyone else in the HL. I mean they're not so bad for a regional university, but come on.


as a "holier than thou" Shocker fan... UIC to MVC would be not be a good move for the Valley.... I hope the MVC is patient... I like Murray State out of all the choices but there is no hurry. Not trolling, but I agree with Suellentrop stay still with 9 and invest in the current members. I want the MVC to get this right.
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Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea

Postby TOPSTRAIGHT » April 29th, 2017, 10:26 am

"Markets" should not be the FIRST consideration.TV dollars are dwindling. The best income is NCAA units and ticket sales(home sites,arch madness). It should still be on the list as a factor though.Teams that have good or at least average support and a high rate of success should be first.

Another way to increase net revenue is to lower travel costs.IMHO the MVC should consider having travel partners in basketball.It saves on transportation,hotel,food, and reduces missed class time.One trip-TWO games.Most other sports in the MVC follow this plan.This is also a big factor in choosing UWM.
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Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea

Postby Dean Wormer » April 29th, 2017, 10:35 am

ptownbraves wrote:
MOST wrote:Not sure I understand the appeal of adding Valpo and Murray State to the MVC. Both are good BB schools, but no ways near the status of WSU or Creighton. Simply put, two topped out mid majors from the #17 HL and #19 OVC--not the teams or towns that are going to raise the MVC schools or BB profile. The MO State President said he voted to invite Loyola because Chicago was a big market that enhanced MOST' name recognition and the potential for increased enrollments from C area students--two clearly defined university president voting reasons. But, I doubt that Valparaiso, IN (pop: 32,000+) or Murray. KY (pop: !8,000) is going to enhance any schools brand or generate MOST enrollments.
If the intent is the same now as it was 5 years ago when Loyola was added then the MVC needs to push to add schools in big market cities: U. Wisconsin Milwaukee, U. MO Kansas City, U. Nebraska Omaha, and if still a possibility Belmont in big market Nashville. Wisconsin Green Bay may also be a possible add but they are small, 6,000 enrollment--but a better 2017 RPI and record than Wisc Milwaukee.


You add Valpo or Murray because their basketball programs are better than the bigger market schools on the table. To add UWM, UMKC, UNO, or UIC to tap into the bigger market over schools like Valpo or Murray State would be watering down the league and creating a lower quality product. Loyola has surpassed my expectations basketball-wise since they've been a member, but the value of big markets to the rest of the league is questionable when there isn't much fan support. Has enrollment in Valley schools increased from Chicago-area kids since Loyola has been a member? I'd like to know that answer but I'd be surprised if it's significant.


Ptown pretty well hits the nail on this one. To say we shouldn't add Murray or Valpo because of population of the city is silly at this point. One, the population of Porter County, IN is over 160,000. If you have ever been up there, you would know it is pretty much one town blending into another. Just taking Porter and Lake Counties, and you have over 700,000 people. Leave out anything on the Illinois side and you still have a very sizeable market. If you are saying Murray can't be anything due to being in a smaller town, you might as well toss out SIU and UNI then. Of the current members, UNI has done the most for the league this decade and SIU did it for the previous one.

I get your point somewhat. The ceiling isn't as high at a UNI as it is for some of the other Valley schools. Bradley, MOST, ISUr and even Evansville could have higher ceilings with similar type results. Fan base, facilities, markets, etc. but that certainly doesn't diminish what UNI has brought to the table, and if Murray can pull off something similar, we are all better off for it. While they could never bring in large crowds in their current facility, I think Loyola could quickly become the darlings of Chicagoland with a few NCAA runs. I remember how they embraced DePaul in the 70's, and they have been awful ever since.

The problem I have with the larger city schools you propose, is that nobody cares. UN-O message board has hockey as the primary forum, with men's basketball grouped into "other sports, and Belmont doesn't even have a board. While it seems silly to base school additions on a fan board, it does give a good indication of the level of fan interest. You argue Murray has done well being in a weaker league, well the same argument is made for Belmont, except Murray has fans. I go to Nashville quite a bit for work, trust me, no one there, from the media to the general population gives a rats rear...and that is with the success they have had. Can you imagine what it would be like after about 6 years of mid pack at best finishes in the Valley? Bradley, UE, ISU have had recent down periods, but they still put butts in the seats. Belmont can't touch anyone in the league in attendance WITH NCAA teams. Same for UM-KC except they are horrible on the court as well.

Currently, Valpo and Murray are solid basketball adds, and clearly the best two options available. In agreement with most everyone else, let's add them for now, and see if a UW-M or UIC can put things together for a 12th add later.
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Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea

Postby VUFWAlum » April 29th, 2017, 1:42 pm

MOST wrote:Not sure I understand the appeal of adding Valpo and Murray State to the MVC. Both are good BB schools, but no ways near the status of WSU or Creighton. Simply put, two topped out mid majors from the #17 HL and #19 OVC--not the teams or towns that are going to raise the MVC schools or BB profile. The MO State President said he voted to invite Loyola because Chicago was a big market that enhanced MOST' name recognition and the potential for increased enrollments from C area students--two clearly defined university president voting reasons. But, I doubt that Valparaiso, IN (pop: 32,000+) or Murray. KY (pop: !8,000) is going to enhance any schools brand or generate MOST enrollments.
If the intent is the same now as it was 5 years ago when Loyola was added then the MVC needs to push to add schools in big market cities: U. Wisconsin Milwaukee, U. MO Kansas City, U. Nebraska Omaha, and if still a possibility Belmont in big market Nashville. Wisconsin Green Bay may also be a possible add but they are small, 6,000 enrollment--but a better 2017 RPI and record than Wisc Milwaukee.
My user name should make my bias blatantly obvious so when I say there are misconceptions concerning Valpo you can take it however your particular leanings take you. I know that when most people, who know nothing about Northeast Indiana, think of Valparaiso they think of Orville Redenbacher, popcorn and cornfields. While there is some truth to that perception you would, as Dean Wormer stated in a previous post, be incorrectly discounting a population within a 25 mile radius that tops 750,000. That is larger than a similar radius of South Bend or Fort Wayne and while those "markets" are perhaps more recognizable the Valparaiso area certainly holds its own in sheer population. There are questions about Valpo's ability to sustain success or that we have "topped out" this is as it should be for almost every mid-major program. Any team can falter, as witnessed by many in the MVC and HL, but I think the evidence suggests that VU can at least for the short run contribute to the success of the MVC. Over the next several years we will be putting on the floor the highest ranked recruits in VU history (and we all know how accurate the recruiting gurus are at predicting a recruits success :roll: ). A 16 year average of our KenPom rating shows we would have been in the top half sans WSU of the MVC and our 7 year average puts us by a fairly significant margin at #2 behind UNI. Yes, there could and should be growing pains. Yes, Alec Peters is gone, but before him was Ryan Broekhoff and be for him Brandon Woods and... you get the point, we have done pretty well at developing players. Yes, there are no more Drews on the bench, but if you read the bio of our young coach Matt Lottich and look at the adversity he faced this past year I think you will be impressed. Our athletic facilities are not up to the standards of many in the MVC and need to be addressed we know that, but I think the game atmosphere will do nicely thank you. We are not Wichita State, no one team could fill those large shoes unless you poach Gonzaga (have fun with that trip) or Butler (whom we beat the last 4 times we have played). What you will get is a basketball-centric athletic department from a private school with excellent academics. With the help of another similar school perhaps the MVC can once again achieve that multi-bid status.
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