Serious Question

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Re: Serious Question

Postby Stickboy46 » May 12th, 2017, 4:01 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:
Stickboy46 wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:
Often the $250K-$500K salary is an increase from a low major to a mid-major. You were hinting that fan support is what will get you the next great coach at WSU, but that requires a good AD with a keen eye on hiring a good, up and coming coach. I am only arguing initial hire since that's what you were referencing, that's it. Your reference to fan support is not overly relevant for hiring on a coach. Nor is it relevant if an ungodly number is thrown out by a school trying to poach and your school can't match it.


Just have to agree to disagree. Fan Support is often mentioned as a reason to take a job. WSU still had a higher level of fan support at the point that Turgeon was hired than any other school in the MVC this year.

Your fan support wasn't even enough to keep Gregg Marshall given the stories that Charles Koch had to lead a group of donors to help raise funds to keep him there after the offer came in.


WSU did not match Alabama's offer by a long shot, yet Marshall did not leave. So this is factually incorrect.
ISUr, just like every other MVC team, can hire in the next Gregg Marshall initially. Who is to say Drake's new Coach Medved isn't the next Gregg Marshall? The problem and the lucky part for Wichita is that you have the money to keep said coach when the P5 comes calling.

We do not.

ISUr could keep a coach until someone comes calling. At that point, unless we have donors willing to increase his salary substantially to nearly match I am guessing he is gone. Fan support or not.

Your entire beliefs are prefaced on a false premise that fan support matters when hiring the next coach and that fan support will manage to keep WSU relevant. It's great to have that support, but it won't mean you will get to maintain or continue to grow the level you were at.


Fan support = $$$$ ... Money = maintaining and keeping good coaches. You can't keep your coach with a decent offer (not talking 4 million here, but more like 1-1.5 million) because you don't have fan support at a high level and don't have high level donors. One or the other and you would be fine.

The University of Illinois lost their coach, have the support, have the donors, have everything you would need to be successful, yet have not been. Why? They hired Bruce Weber who could not leverage the Final Four he reached with Bill Self's players. Then hired John Groce who could not recruit well enough to compete in the Big 10 and even make the NCAA Tournament.
Illinois has what WSU has. Fan Support, money, donors, etc. and yet they were not able to match the success of Bill Self (coming from Tulsa) to maintain the status.
Initially, Illinois was able to hire Bill Self (again an upgrade from mid-major to high major...similar to Turgeon/Marshall low major to mid-major) but once they lost him, their fan support/program support was not enough to keep thier level of play the same and they have dropped off...fan support withstanding.


And they just hired Underwood for 3 million or so a year. Without that continued support, they couldn't have done that. Underwood is a pretty proven coach. He may not succeed but has the potential to.


I never said anything about the money was not a match. All I said was fan support was not enough, they STILL had to ask big donors for money to get closer to that $4 million.

Illinois has big time Football revenue. Illinois has big time donors. Illinois hired him with P5 money, not due to fan support (they quit selling out games in recent years)


You are really stretching here. Fan support isn't enough to make a coach stay for nothing. It's not enough to make a coach turn down a 2.5x to 3x pay increase. It WAS enough to turn down a 50% higher salary.
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Re: Serious Question

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Re: Serious Question

Postby BirdsEyeView » May 12th, 2017, 4:07 pm

You are not including all of his bonus money and appearance money he is also receiving with his new deal by the way.

I still don't see how fan support helps Wichita State hire their next coach? If that donor money doesn't come and that elite offer from Bama actually....how does your fan support guarantee you the next Gregg Marshall level coach?

Mark Turgeon (and you) would have left Jacksonville St. for Wichita St.
Gregg Marshall would have left Winthrop for Wichita St.

Both no matter how good the fan support at those schools.

It's an upgrade and a higher profile position. Marshall also stuck around due to his kids in school, that has nothing to do with fan support and $3.5 million per year in 2018 plus bonuses and perks and not being second fiddle to Alabama Football all probably had something to do with him staying just as much as you the super fan at WSU.
Last edited by BirdsEyeView on May 12th, 2017, 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Serious Question

Postby BirdsEyeView » May 12th, 2017, 4:09 pm

Stickboy46 wrote:
You are really stretching here. Fan support isn't enough to make a coach stay for nothing. It's not enough to make a coach turn down a 2.5x to 3x pay increase. It WAS enough to turn down a 50% higher salary.


Stretching how?

What was 50% higher that he turned down $3 million to $4 million is not 50%?

It's 33%.
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Re: Serious Question

Postby Jsnhbe1Birds » May 12th, 2017, 4:09 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:
Jsnhbe1Birds wrote:I agree fans need to show up to Redbird arena. The community support sucks. The fact is Bloomington-Normal isnt much of a sports town. In fact, the only thing BloNo seams to like are crappy country concerts. Still ISUr is regularly between 50-60% capacity according to the numbers, not 20-40%. They need to lower prices and even give away tickets for now to get up to 80-90% capacity. Get fans interested in a good product and they will come back. This, of course, requires a good product. As of now they have that. Do whatever it takes. Fake it until you make it. The status quo is ridiculous and I can't believe they'd rather stay at half full then 90% full. But, they seem to. Players want to play in capacity stadiums not a half empty arena where you can hear their on court conversation from the upper bowl. Better recruits equal a better product, which equals more wins, which equal more money. Put butts in the seats by any legal means necessary.


But does doing that mean Dan Muller will stick around if a school like Wake Forest comes calling and offers $2 million a year instead of his $500K+ right now?

If we sell out Redbird Arena next year for every game and we are good, then offseason comes and that offer comes in from Wake Forest. Is Dan Muller still here because of the fan support (assuming we don't have the donors to get close to $2 million a year)?

No way.


ISU and it's donors have the money to pay two million per season. Just like WSU, they want to see results before handing it over. Koch wasn't just giving handouts before marshall showed up. McLean county is very wealthy. People here have money. The county is the richest county in Illinois outside of Chicago. Don't let the current landscape fool you. I'm not saying Muller stays. I don't know what his goals in life are. But, if ISU wants to keep him they could. Now, if it gets into the 3/4-million range I'm not so sure but I'm positive they could pay him 2.5.
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Re: Serious Question

Postby BirdsEyeView » May 12th, 2017, 4:13 pm

Jsnhbe1Birds wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:
Jsnhbe1Birds wrote:I agree fans need to show up to Redbird arena. The community support sucks. The fact is Bloomington-Normal isnt much of a sports town. In fact, the only thing BloNo seams to like are crappy country concerts. Still ISUr is regularly between 50-60% capacity according to the numbers, not 20-40%. They need to lower prices and even give away tickets for now to get up to 80-90% capacity. Get fans interested in a good product and they will come back. This, of course, requires a good product. As of now they have that. Do whatever it takes. Fake it until you make it. The status quo is ridiculous and I can't believe they'd rather stay at half full then 90% full. But, they seem to. Players want to play in capacity stadiums not a half empty arena where you can hear their on court conversation from the upper bowl. Better recruits equal a better product, which equals more wins, which equal more money. Put butts in the seats by any legal means necessary.


But does doing that mean Dan Muller will stick around if a school like Wake Forest comes calling and offers $2 million a year instead of his $500K+ right now?

If we sell out Redbird Arena next year for every game and we are good, then offseason comes and that offer comes in from Wake Forest. Is Dan Muller still here because of the fan support (assuming we don't have the donors to get close to $2 million a year)?

No way.


ISU and it's donors have the money to pay two million per season. Just like WSU, they want to see results before handing it over. Koch wasn't just giving handouts before marshall showed up. McLean county is very wealthy. People here have money. The county is the richest county in Illinois outside of Chicago. Don't let the current landscape fool you. I'm not saying Muller stays. I don't know what his goals in life are. But, if ISU wants to keep him they could. Now, if it gets into the 3/4-million range I'm not so sure but I'm positive they could pay him 2.5.



Dude, B/N has a bunch of imports for State Farm. They have no allegiances to Illinois State (hence our fan support sucks). Those people with money aren't supporting ISU. Their is a stadium 45 minutes east called State Farm Center for a reason.
The rich people in town don't care about ISUr (most of them at least).

You are making major assumptions that:

1. We have people with money
2. Those people with money care about Illinois State University
3. Tose people who have money and who care about ISU also care about ISU Athletics and not say the Business School
4. Those people with money, who care about ISU and care about ISU Athletics also care about ISU Basketball and not ISU Golf

If we did, would Kevin Stallings have left after 1998 to Vanderbilt? We were near sellouts back then...why didn't any of these donors fork over the cash then? We wouldn't be in a 20 year NCAA drought that we are today.
Last edited by BirdsEyeView on May 12th, 2017, 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Serious Question

Postby Stickboy46 » May 12th, 2017, 4:14 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:
Stickboy46 wrote:
You are really stretching here. Fan support isn't enough to make a coach stay for nothing. It's not enough to make a coach turn down a 2.5x to 3x pay increase. It WAS enough to turn down a 50% higher salary.


Stretching how?

What was 50% higher that he turned down $3 million to $4 million is not 50%?

It's 33%.

No one saw the official offer but the rumor was it was 4.4-4.8 million. So basically 50%.
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Re: Serious Question

Postby BirdsEyeView » May 12th, 2017, 4:17 pm

Stickboy46 wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:
Stickboy46 wrote:
You are really stretching here. Fan support isn't enough to make a coach stay for nothing. It's not enough to make a coach turn down a 2.5x to 3x pay increase. It WAS enough to turn down a 50% higher salary.


Stretching how?

What was 50% higher that he turned down $3 million to $4 million is not 50%?

It's 33%.

No one saw the official offer but the rumor was it was 4.4-4.8 million. So basically 50%.


Semantics. We just have a different philosophy.

I still don't see how fan support helps you maintain your level if GM is at Alabama right now alone.

You better hope your AD would have hired the next GM...and that has nothing to do with fan support.
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Re: Serious Question

Postby Jsnhbe1Birds » May 12th, 2017, 4:21 pm

How do you what Stallings was offered, what the donors offered, or what his intentions were? Stallings had no connection to ISU either. He might have walked to the sec for a few hundred thousand more. Stallings wanted big time.
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Re: Serious Question

Postby Stickboy46 » May 12th, 2017, 4:22 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:
Stickboy46 wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:
Stretching how?

What was 50% higher that he turned down $3 million to $4 million is not 50%?

It's 33%.

No one saw the official offer but the rumor was it was 4.4-4.8 million. So basically 50%.


Semantics. We just have a different philosophy.

I still don't see how fan support helps you maintain your level if GM is at Alabama right now alone.

You better hope your AD would have hired the next GM...and that has nothing to do with fan support.

Nothing can guarantee that you will get a home run hire but fan support (and the associated money) sure helps make a better hire. If you can't understand that, then well that's on you. I hope your admin doesn't have the same mindset and doesn't care about fan support.
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Re: Serious Question

Postby Jsnhbe1Birds » May 12th, 2017, 4:24 pm

Speaking specifically regarding state fsrm. A lot of isu's problem is on them. State farm has tried. The idiots at isu have rebuffed them.
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