If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Discuss the MVC hoops season here.

Choose 2 (you may change your vote later)

Murray State
74
47%
Oral Roberts
13
8%
Northern Kentucky
34
21%
North Dakota State
7
4%
South Dakota State
6
4%
South Dakota
4
3%
Other (please comment)
21
13%
 
Total votes : 159

Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby RacerJoeD » January 5th, 2018, 3:58 pm

I understand the upside, but allow me if you will to give you the experience the OVC had.

A couple decades ago, the OVC was a premier mid major conference. In addition to Murray State, the OVC had western kentucky, Middle Tennessee, and Akron in the conference. The basketball was pretty good. Over time, western kentucky, Middle Tennessee and Akron left and were replaced with Tennessee State, Southeast Missouri, Tennessee-Martin, Jacksonville State, Samford, Eastern Illinois, Belmont, and Southern Illinois-Edwardsville.

These teams combined in their histories have a total of 11 NCAA tournament appearances and 0 (zero) wins.

As a comparison, Akron, Middle Tennessee and western kentucky have in their pasts 35 NCAA tournament appearances and 18 wins.

Whats more, a few years ago, NKU wanted to join the OVC. They had the finances, the facilities, and the desire to be successful. The vote of conference members didn't allow them in, some because they didn't have football, some for other reasons.

The point of the story is that adding someone to the conference isn't just getting their upside, its realizing that they have a possible downside, and that once there, its nearly impossible to get them out, and they get to vote on everything.

Yes, GCU has upside, but they also have a massive downside risk and if the MVC cannot and should not take that risk, IMO.


The other thing to think about is the fragility of the the Sun Belt and CUSA. Both are on the verge of collapse.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby VUGrad1314 » January 5th, 2018, 4:11 pm

RacerJoeD wrote:I understand the upside, but allow me if you will to give you the experience the OVC had.

A couple decades ago, the OVC was a premier mid major conference. In addition to Murray State, the OVC had western kentucky, Middle Tennessee, and Akron in the conference. The basketball was pretty good. Over time, western kentucky, Middle Tennessee and Akron left and were replaced with Tennessee State, Southeast Missouri, Tennessee-Martin, Jacksonville State, Samford, Eastern Illinois, Belmont, and Southern Illinois-Edwardsville.

These teams combined in their histories have a total of 11 NCAA tournament appearances and 0 (zero) wins.

As a comparison, Akron, Middle Tennessee and western kentucky have in their pasts 35 NCAA tournament appearances and 18 wins.

Whats more, a few years ago, NKU wanted to join the OVC. They had the finances, the facilities, and the desire to be successful. The vote of conference members didn't allow them in, some because they didn't have football, some for other reasons.

The point of the story is that adding someone to the conference isn't just getting their upside, its realizing that they have a possible downside, and that once there, its nearly impossible to get them out, and they get to vote on everything.

Yes, GCU has upside, but they also have a massive downside risk and if the MVC cannot and should not take that risk, IMO.


The other thing to think about is the fragility of the the Sun Belt and CUSA. Both are on the verge of collapse.


They're both on the verge of collapse? Aren't there enough FCS teams looking to move up to keep the Sun Belt afloat even if CUSA keeps eating it? And where would the affected teams go? I always felt that the only conferences in real trouble were the WAC and the Atlantic Sun. Also wouldn't the collapses of the Sun Belt and CUSA only create a more difficult climate for mid majors by creating more conferences and thereby taking away more bids?
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby Blers » January 5th, 2018, 4:39 pm

I haven't really been in on this topic much, but i'm curious as to how people feel about Oakland?
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby RacerJoeD » January 5th, 2018, 4:43 pm

VUGrad1314 wrote:

They're both on the verge of collapse? Aren't there enough FCS teams looking to move up to keep the Sun Belt afloat even if CUSA keeps eating it? And where would the affected teams go? I always felt that the only conferences in real trouble were the WAC and the Atlantic Sun. Also wouldn't the collapses of the Sun Belt and CUSA only create a more difficult climate for mid majors by creating more conferences and thereby taking away more bids?



tl;dr

Yes both are for financial reasons. Look at their geography and travel and reduced television money. There are enough teams, and if they would arrange themselves along regional lines, it might make them more stable but often there is pride and stubbornness at play there.

Where the affected teams would go is a great question. So far, football has driven conference realignment. As such, it could be a simple realignment along geographic lines, with some teams be cast out to fend for themselves a la NMSU and the WAC.

The collapse create a more difficult climate? YES. Maybe not in the way you think about taking at large ( though that is a direct problem). Currently, the majority of revenue is isolated in the Power 5 football conferences. Some of that gets through to the MAC, CUSA, and Sun Belt through pay football games, and then further down to non FBS schools via pay games with P5 schools (or pay games to CUSA, MAC, SBC games).

So many of the mid major basketball schools have mortgaged their programs to get into FBS, once conferences ban the scheduling of the non FBS programs (like the Big Ten has toyed with), or cut back their scheduling of non P5 schools. These changes will cut funding to non P5 schools and will hit those who have leveraged their programs for "big boy" football. Once these programs start to wobble, the P5 programs will look to further solidify their status as the "only" home for NCAA sports. Perhaps even go to break up the NCAA altogether, the way they did back when they split IA and IAA. The only hope for Mid Majors lies in basketball.

Football is an arms race. The rich teams win championships. The less rich get bowl games, and the poor get a cut of the revenue. Basketball on the other hand, while still an arms race in many ways, still has room for Cinderella's ( as long as they get the shot). Also many more games that have to be played. But the P5 teams are trying to keep control there as well, but the difference is that the public has a memory of the Cinderella Stories in basketball. They become lore. That hasn't been the case in football, so in basketball, there is hope for the smaller schools.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby mvfcfan » January 5th, 2018, 4:45 pm

From this list I'll take Murray State and Northern Kentucky in a heartbeat.

I want no part of Belmont. They'll just turn us down again and I still don't get the appeal to them besides the fact that they seem to win more times than not. The fact that we keep chasing after them is embarrassing. It's like chasing after the girl that doesn't want you.

South Dakota State would be great, but as mentioned, I doubt they would leave USD, NDSU, and UND. They also pretty much host the Summit League tournament.

UTA, GCU, and Denver are all too far so hard pass. No mention of New Mexico State either. SIU and INST only allowed the Dakota schools in the MVFC based on the fact that they'd only have to travel up there once a year, so good luck convincing those schools to allow either of those three (UTA, GCU, DEN) in.

Milwaukee and Oakland are okay options, and options I kind of expected to see. Oakland has had a lot of on the court success, but their arena is definitely not MVC quality.

SE Missouri is a little surprising. Their geography is perfect, but their product on the court isn't anything spectacular.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby RacerJoeD » January 5th, 2018, 4:47 pm

Blers wrote:I haven't really been in on this topic much, but i'm curious as to how people feel about Oakland?


They're Belmont lite, IMO. Single D1 coach with a long tenure, some success, big market.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby TheAsianSensation » January 5th, 2018, 9:48 pm

RacerJoeD wrote:
A couple decades ago, the OVC was a premier mid major conference. In addition to Murray State, the OVC had western kentucky, Middle Tennessee, and Akron in the conference. The basketball was pretty good. Over time, western kentucky, Middle Tennessee and Akron left and were replaced with Tennessee State, Southeast Missouri, Tennessee-Martin, Jacksonville State, Samford, Eastern Illinois, Belmont, and Southern Illinois-Edwardsville.

For every person who argues that the MVC should add a team solely because of their geography, or solely to get to a specific number of teams in the conference, I am going to bump this post and force that person to read this paragraph, then smack that poster upside the head across the internet until they get the point.

That is what happens when priorities are mismanaged.
http://bracketball.blogspot.com/ A national version of the world-famous TAS Bracketology. Spread the word
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby mvfcfan » January 5th, 2018, 10:42 pm

Just thought I'd let everyone know I am going to start a new poll with the 10 schools mentioned in the expansion article that the MVC is supposedly considering for expansion. Now that we have a better list of schools the poll might be better.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby TOPSTRAIGHT » January 6th, 2018, 12:16 am

Reading the latest article from valley hoops insider it seems like it will not happen in 2018.Maybe this is Elgin's way of lowering expectations or dragging his feet--who knows? Unless the presidents really push the matter it may not happen as quickly as most on this board prefer.The lack of clarity on a #12 will possibly cause trouble again IMO.A surprise candidate that ALL the chiefs could support may be the only way this gets done this year.By surprise--I just mean a mild surprise.But who??
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby VUGrad1314 » January 6th, 2018, 12:23 am

Still failing to see what's wrong with NKU as #12 and I swear if anyone says "becuse NKU isn't private" I'm going to be annoyed.
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