If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Discuss the MVC hoops season here.

Choose 2 (you may change your vote later)

Murray State
67
46%
Oral Roberts
13
9%
Northern Kentucky
27
18%
North Dakota State
8
5%
South Dakota State
6
4%
South Dakota
4
3%
Other (please comment)
21
14%
 
Total votes : 146

Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby uniguy » August 17th, 2017, 5:18 pm

Markets mean significantly less in a mid-major league where there isn't a big TV deal. What good does being in a major market do you if you are such a small player in that market that nobody notices you?

Take Loyola and compare them to a school like SDSU. Chicago has almost 3 million in the metro and almost 10 million in the metro. There are less than a million people in the entire gigantic state of South Dakota. Yet I would bet if you polled every Chicagoan and every South Dakotan on who their favorite team was, there would be more people who said they were SDSU fans than Loyola fans. I would bet more people follow SDSU closely than they do Loyola.

That isn't a knock on Loyola. They are in a market with a ton of pro sports teams, minor league teams, and even a number of college teams (some in higher profile leagues). SDSU has significantly less to compete with in South Dakota, it just makes sense. But my point is.....when the pedal meets the road, what does our league REALLY gain by being in bigger markets? A little bit of recruiting inroads.....a nice destination for fans to travel. But without a big TV deal like BTN to try and add cable subscriptions it really isn't a ton.

I think the strength of the league is that the teams are in smaller towns and the people in those towns care about their teams. The "rabidness" of the fan base ebbs and flows as it does for most mid-majors, but overall I think teams like UNI, Illinois State, SIU, etc benefit from not having to compete with other programs directly in their towns.

A team like Creighton, Wichita, Marquette, Villanova......great. They are big-time and have captured the hearts of their town. That is great. But when you are UWM (second behind Marquette in their town.....if you don't even count the overwhelming influence of Wisconsin.....or all the pro teams), or Omaha (second behind Creighton), or Oral Roberts (beind Tulsa.....not to mention OU and OSU) you just don't see that much of a benefit at our level. I'll take a Valpo or a Murray who at least gets support from their own community over a team that is swallowed in a large market. At least that is my opinion.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby TheAsianSensation » August 17th, 2017, 7:49 pm

I'm kind of hoping NKU takes off these next couple years and makes the decision easy.

Right now I want Murray St and whoever is willing to spend and win in the next couple years.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby mvfcfan » August 17th, 2017, 8:05 pm

It's too bad that Belmont isn't willing to come in with Murray State. That by far would be the best two additions possible.

However, I can see why Belmont would want to stay in the OVC from a travel perspective and I am respectful of that decision. They are literally right in the center of their conference and the farthest they currently have to travel is 5 hours north to Charleston, IL. In the MVC there would be 7 schools that are over 6 hours away.

I was honestly surprised when Murray State wanted to join the league. I figured Murray State probably wouldn't want to come to the MVC because of their football team. I figured they would probably like the idea of staying in a true all-sports conference.

Before Creighton and Wichita State left; and Valparaiso joined; I actually liked the thought of Indiana State moving to the OVC because of travel and the fact that we could compete better financially in basketball and football. Plus there would be the added bonus of getting to restart our rivalry with Eastern Illinois again. Now that both Valparaiso and Evansville are in the MVC it kind of makes more sense for us to stay now. The football travel in the MVFC is what really sucks though. Taking the football team all the way to the Dakotas every year has to be expensive. If we were to add them for all sports then things start to get really expensive.

After saying that I think these are the schools that need to be considered, somewhat in order (if either St Louis or Belmont changes their mind then let them in as the #12).
1) Murray State= No explanation necessary. They're basically a lock for the #11 spot. If we can't get them then we should just stay at 10.
2) Oral Roberts= In basketball this century they had 14 consecutive winning seasons and 3 NCAA tournament appearances. In baseball they've been to the NCAA tournament 18 times since 1998. They also give Missouri State a travel partner, potential rival, and keep the public/private split even.
3) Milwaukee= They were a finalist for MVC membership this last time around. They've made the tournament 4 times this century and won 3 games, including a Sweet 16 run in 2005. They are not a bad add and are worth considering again.
4) Northern Kentucky= NKU has a lot of potential. There is no denying that. Their basketball history in D2 is honestly pretty good. They made the D2 NCAA tournament 12 times since 1995 and they made the real deal in their first year of eligibility. The big question is if they can keep being successful. So far so good, but D1 is a different animal than D2. Overall they appear that they would be a good add.
5) Oakland= They just came off a 25-9 season where they won the Horizon League and won a first round game in the NIT. They've been good in the past. Overall they would be an okay add.

At the end of the day I think the 5 above are probably the ones that are most likely to be considered by the search committee. Besides Murray State two of them are privates while 2 are non-football publics. The XDSUs are worth looking at, but the travel is an issue and that is why they most likely won't be considered. I think the league wants to keep travel down as much as possible. I also don't think the private schools would go for that idea, which in their defense I can see why, because I would be against adding two privates for the same reasons.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby MissouriValleyUnite » August 17th, 2017, 9:46 pm

Good list.

I break mine in 4 tiers.

Tier I - Can't Miss
Murray State

Tier II - Solid Adds
Oral Roberts
Northern Kentucky

Tier III - Meh, but I'll acquiesce
Illinois-Chicago
UMKC
Milwaukee

Tier IV - Irreconciable
Omaha

I don't see anyone outside those 7 receiving consideration.

Won't Accept
Saint Louis
Belmont

Can't Miss, but Geography rules 'em out
Grand Canyon
New Mexico State
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
Arlington

Not Impossible, but MVC unlikely to consider Arkansas/Michigan/Ohio
Little Rock
Oakland
Wright State
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby VUGrad1314 » August 20th, 2017, 9:36 am

This potential expansion discussion is very interesting as it carries such a profound impact on the future of the conference. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Dakotas even with the travel concerns since they have both averaged a top 100 RPI over the past 5 years and this conference needs quality. Adding Murray State and NKU probably ends most talk of expanding further west and further isolates Missouri State, although it does set us up as the midmajor league for the state. It would also open up Wright State and Oakland as possible followup adds, though I doubt our southernmost schools would sign off on that. I question whether Wright State could even make the jump financially and whether Oakland's success is sustainable long-term. Adding Oral Roberts or Little Rock might be our gateway to getting back into Texas with UT-Arlington and SFA if we ever decide to go to 14. That would open up some options on a new tourney site should they ever decide to leave St Louis, but it either means no Murray State or we need to either add or drop a football member, which we could do with Sam Houston State or Central Arkansas, or perhaps Western Illinois bolts for the OVC in that scenario. Adding UIC and Milwaukee would be upside plays that don't do anything for the league short-term and it would change the character of the league and make Chicago much more prominent as an MVC city, something I'm not certain that the conference wants. On the plus side however this move would theoretically keep all ptions open for any followup rounds of expansion. The one thing we risk is the loss of profile and prestige while these two programs endure their growing pains as they adjust to the MVC.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby mvfcfan » August 20th, 2017, 4:44 pm

The two XDSU schools should be considered in this process for sure. They are really the two schools I could see coming in and winning the conference year after year. The biggest issue is that I'm not sure our league office is willing to play dirty with the Summit League. If we take both Dakota schools that means that the Summit League will be down to 6 schools assuming that IPFW also leaves. But then again, why should we care about the Summit League? Regardless of what were to happen to UND, USD, and WIU we'd still have at least 8 teams in the MVFC because of YSU. We'd have 12 for basketball and 10 for baseball. That's really a pretty solid and stable league. As far as the Summit League is concerned maybe them and the WAC could merge together, but that's not particularly our problem is it?

I think if we were to add NDSU and SDSU we need to get rid of the MVFC and just make football a conference (MVC) sponsored sport and add YSU as a football only member (UND, USD, and WIU could also be invited as football only depending on if they were still available).

I think that it's pretty reasonable to assume that Murray State, Milwaukee, Northern KY, and Oral Roberts will be the primary schools considered in this process. Murray State is solid but the other three all have question marks all over them. On the other hand NDSU and SDSU really don't have very many question marks except for the fact that they add a lot of travel.

So the big question is do we add two solid teams with added travel or do we add 1 solid team plus one with question marks to keep travel down? It's a very tough decision, but one that we need to get right for sure.

And before someone mentions NMSU and GCU let me make it clear. There is a big difference between traveling to the Dakotas and traveling to the southwestern US. NDSU and SDSU are actually busable for Drake and UNI. NMSU and GCU aren't busable for anyone. NDSU and SDSU are also in spots that will make it difficult for them to be poached away. GCU and NMSU could be poached away pretty easily.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby VUGrad1314 » August 20th, 2017, 6:01 pm

For the record I'm pretty confident in NKU Less so in Oral Roberts and Milwaukee . My concern is whether Missouri State and SIU would accept NKU since it'd be a pretty far trip and travel costs\finances are a concern to them. I don't think the MVC is terribly worried about the Summit's future. They have a similar agreement with the Horizon League for football and that hasn't stopped them from repeatedly taking teams from that league (Evansville Loyola Valpo and they also strongly considered UIC and Milwaukee) Heck, Omaha from the Summit was even a finalist this past go around As was UMKC in 2013.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby ACECARD » August 20th, 2017, 8:06 pm

Speaking of Grand Canyon, I notice that the Aces men's soccer team is playing them in Phoenix on September 7. Anyone else playing them in anything in the future? Hard to see how the Aces would fly an entire soccer team out that far, for just one soccer game.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby uniftw » August 21st, 2017, 8:58 am

Fargo is not a bus trip from Cedar Falls unless you make it a 3 day trip. It's 7 hours one way. You're going up the day before, and even if you leave right after the game it's going to be an overnight bus or get back so late that you're taking the next day off for recovery from a 7 hour bus trip.

For something like Volleyball it might work with SDSU. 5.5 hours to SDSU from UNI. 3 house from SDSU to NDSU. 7 hours home next day.

The idea of the DSU's has grown on me. The problem in my head is Murray State is still the best 11th. The lack of a good 12th is the issue. Going to 14 does no good unless it's a 3 bid league.

NDSU, SDSU Murray State and SFA would be fantastic adds to get to 14
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby Jsnhbe1Birds » August 21st, 2017, 9:27 am

uniftw wrote:Fargo is not a bus trip from Cedar Falls unless you make it a 3 day trip. It's 7 hours one way. You're going up the day before, and even if you leave right after the game it's going to be an overnight bus or get back so late that you're taking the next day off for recovery from a 7 hour bus trip.

For something like Volleyball it might work with SDSU. 5.5 hours to SDSU from UNI. 3 house from SDSU to NDSU. 7 hours home next day.

The idea of the DSU's has grown on me. The problem in my head is Murray State is still the best 11th. The lack of a good 12th is the issue. Going to 14 does no good unless it's a 3 bid league.

NDSU, SDSU Murray State and SFA would be fantastic adds to get to 14


SFA is so far south. MSU cant travel with them. You might as well add GCU if youre talking about anyone in texas.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby CoolArrow » August 21st, 2017, 2:31 pm

Why would MSU and SFA travel together? Thats not how travel partners work, is it?

I thought when people talked about travel partners, such as Drake/UNI, it meant that a visiting team had two games on the road on the same trip. I dont even know if MVC schedules with this in mind.

Similar to the Evansville soccer scenario, are they really going out west to play just once at GCU? Youd figure they would stop somewhere else on the way there or back.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby uniftw » August 22nd, 2017, 7:20 am

CoolArrow wrote:Why would MSU and SFA travel together? Thats not how travel partners work, is it?

I thought when people talked about travel partners, such as Drake/UNI, it meant that a visiting team had two games on the road on the same trip. I dont even know if MVC schedules with this in mind.

Similar to the Evansville soccer scenario, are they really going out west to play just once at GCU? Youd figure they would stop somewhere else on the way there or back.

Travel partners are only a thing in volleyball and women's basketball.

The idea with bringing SFA wouldn't be for travel partners. As I've said from the very damn start, it's about insulating the league from whatever dumb crap that the Summit may try to pull. I've made probably a dozen posts that say this same thing. So there is one bad travel weekend with MSU and SFA. BFD. We are D1 schools, right? We have bugdgets over 18-25 million dollars? So there is 2 weekends a year (VB and WBB) that we don't get to fly to one location, bus to the second and fly home from there.

Inuslating. MUSU and SFA create this conference

Bradley
Drake
Evansville
Illinois State
Indiana State
Loyola
Missouri State
Murray State
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois
Stephan F Austin
Valpo

That is 12 schools with 7 of them playing football. That is enough to maintain an autobid and keep the football programs safe if the Summit schools do something dumb like pull out of the MVFC for their own Summit League football. We also have YSU as an affiliate. That means 8 MVFC teams. It's not ideal, but it can be worked. This scenario doesn't leave the football schools scrambling for a home should the SL schools leave. It's a safety blanket. It brings security to everyone in the conference. Want to guess where schools like Drake, Evansville and Loyola end up if the football playing schools take off and form a conference with football in mind? Horizon, if lucky. Contrary to popular belief with the hubris these schools have, they aren't a hot commodity in the realignment world. No one is banging down the door for Drake, Evansville and Loyola. Bradley and Valpo are the two that could maybe try to hook into something bigger, like the A10. Valpo has the recent success and name. Bradley is the only one with the fan base, resources, and arena to be attractive. They need to show signs of life REAL soon...like this year or next...if they want to avoid the world of being Drake and Evansville.

Going to 14 with the Dakota State's puts it at 9 football members, with YSU as an affiliate for 10. Honestly, in the FCS 9 is the perfect number of teams so we could dump YSU if so inclined.

Looking at that conference, with or without the DSU's on a map makes travel partners real easy.

BU/ISUR - 40 miles - 40 minutes
LUC/VU - 65 miles - 1.5 hours
UE/ISUB - 111 miles - 2 hours
MUSU/SIU - 113 miles - 2 hours
UNI/D+ - 123 miles 2 hours
SDSU/NDSU - if going that route - 190 miles - 3 hours but it's literally straight up an interstate. Goes quick
MOSU/SFA - plane

Realistically speaking, that's a best case scenario for travel for the entire conference. Cedar Falls to Des Moines is the worst trip of that and it's a damn easy drive. Obviously it won't happen, but it really is damn nice scenario to go after


If the 12th is Belmont the travel partners are
BU/ISUR - 40 miles - 40 minutes
LUC/VU - 65 miles - 1.5 hours
UE/ISUB - 111 miles - 2 hours
UNI/D+ - 123 miles - 2 hours
MUSU/BMT - 123 miles - 2 hours
MOSU/SIU - plane
You actually expand the amount of driving distance, on average, slightly this way vs SFA.

If the 12th is SLU the most realistic option is
BU/ISUR - 40 miles - 40 minutes
LUC/VU - 65 miles - 1.5 hours
SLU/SIU - 110 miles - 2 hours
UE/ISUB - 111 miles - 2 hours
UNI/D+ - 123 miles - 2 hours
MOSU/MUSU - plane


As you can see, it doesn't matter, travel wise, who the 12th is. It doesn't really affect the travel partner issue at all. All it does is shift MOSO, MUSU, SIU and ISUb around to who is with who.

That does not mean "WELL, THAT'S A REASON FOR GCU!". No. GCU can not, and will not sustain what you think they will. There is going to be a bubble on education, and for profit universities will feel that the hardest. On top of that, looking at places that rate schools they aren't exactly well rated. They aren't ranked in any areas by US News. They are not viewed well by actual institutions. They put in a bid to become non-profit, and were turned down by those who do the accreditation. Why were they turned down? Well because, like like almost every for-profit, GCU was found to invest minimally in their school and focused on investor satisfaction. Non-profits invest back into the schools to cover all aspects of generating quality education for their students. The ruse that GCU tried to play was to set up separate companies that were still interwoven into GCU. They were going to pay these marketing and adjunct companies to do what GCU should have been doing in the first place. The places in charge of accreditation saw right through that.

Grand Canyon had proposed to create a new nonprofit “school corporation” and to house various functions of the company in a separate, unaccredited and for-profit “services corporation.” That structure is similar to those of smaller for-profits that previously have made the switch to nonprofit.
The commission, however, decided that the proposed structure would move too much of Grand Canyon’s academic operations to the for-profit division.

HLC said its requirements “do not allow for an institution to outsource all or the majority of its basic functions related to academic and student support services and curriculum development, even where the contract between the parties indicates that the accredited institution provides oversight of those services.”
In a statement, the HLC also said its current criteria require an accredited institution to have “both teaching and learning as well as service functions within the accredited structure.”
The only reason they want to return to non-profit? Taxes. Turns out they don't like paying taxes on the hundreds of millions of dollars they swindle from students and investors. They pay almost $60,000,000 a year in taxes. Plus they are sick of dealing with the regulations that the federal government, correctly, put on for-profit schools.

Being for profit means CGU can't accept philanthropic donations. They can't pursue research grants. They've sold that "our teachers teach and don't spend time researching" as a draw. Now they are realizing that reserach grants are a big deal and they are backtracking on that and trying to get research funding. They can't participate in the NCAA governance boards.

Again, GCU is nothing but Kaplan or UoP but with athletics. The are a for profit version of ORU and Liberty. These are all schools that are known diploma mills with most of them having significant internal issues. It appears that GCU is starting to run into that. GCU wants to turn their academic side into a non-profit but their proposals always leave athletics on the for-profit side.

No. They don't even get a No, thank you. It's just a flat no
Last edited by uniftw on August 22nd, 2017, 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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