If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Discuss the MVC hoops season here.

Choose 2 (you may change your vote later)

Murray State
74
47%
Oral Roberts
13
8%
Northern Kentucky
34
21%
North Dakota State
7
4%
South Dakota State
6
4%
South Dakota
4
3%
Other (please comment)
21
13%
 
Total votes : 159

Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby mvfcfan » August 16th, 2017, 5:11 pm

I agree with BEARZ77.

The selection process is really the big issue. There's no way a team like Kansas State, Wake Forest, or Vanderbilt should have made it over the Redbirds this past season. There was even talk that if Wichita State had not of beaten ILST that Wichita wouldn't have made it. The fact that Wichita was seeded 10th was also extremely unfair.

There were only three at large bids given to mid majors this past season. Two from the Atlantic 10 (Dayton and VCU) and one from the WCC (St Mary's). Dayton and VCU have both had a lot of NCAA tournament success and there is also east coast bias involved as well. St Mary's finished 28-4 and had too good of a record to keep them out, especially when 3 of those losses were against a top 4 team (Gonzaga).

The only way the MVC is going to get 2 bids from now on is if we just happen to have one team that is dominant and wins 28 or more games; and that team happens to get beaten in the semifinals or finals of the MVC tournament. The system is set up to allow more and more big schools in and keep less and less small schools out.

I just know that they were trying to keep Middle Tennessee out because they had a "bad loss" at UTEP. I found it kind of funny since UTEP finished a terrible 4th in the CUSA! (MTSU would have had a 29-5 record had they of lost the CUSA championship game.)

If a top team from the ACC (or any other power conference) went on the road and lost to a bottom dweller in the ACC then it wouldn't even affect them. If anything they'd just talk about the strength of the conference from top to bottom and it would move the bottom dweller into the bubble conversation. Most of these teams from these power conferences play almost all home games in non-conference play to make their overall record look good and then they hope that they can finish at or close to .500 in conference play. If you don't believe me look up some of their schedules.

But back to the MVC, I think we should try to add quality programs that are capable of winning tournament games should they make it that far. But as far as getting 2 bids goes, I'm not entirely confident that we'll ever get to that point again. I hope I'm wrong, but with all these big schools gaming the system it's only going to get tougher. I think going to 12 has more to do with conference stability than anything else. There's strength in numbers. We just have to be careful that whatever decision we make doesn't mess up anything in our football league (MVFC).
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby rally » August 16th, 2017, 5:26 pm

We'll stay at 10 if the decision makers don't think it will help getting multiple bids. It's really that simple.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby BEARZ77 » August 16th, 2017, 6:23 pm

rally wrote:We'll stay at 10 if the decision makers don't think it will help getting multiple bids. It's really that simple.

Well again, conferences don't get bids teams do. Conferences can only aid the process by having easily accessible top level wins built into their conference schedules via H/H games against each other. We will never have that luxury, so if that means staying at 10, then we do I guess cause there is nobody out there who can get us multiple bids. But lets be honest, none of our parent schools would either if they were the schools looking to join. Again we'll have some opportunities for multiple bids, but it will be based solely on the strength of individual schedules and wins in the non-con, not the conference.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby rally » August 16th, 2017, 6:41 pm

BEARZ77 wrote:
rally wrote:We'll stay at 10 if the decision makers don't think it will help getting multiple bids. It's really that simple.

Well again, conferences don't get bids teams do. Conferences can only aid the process by having easily accessible top level wins built into their conference schedules via H/H games against each other. We will never have that luxury, so if that means staying at 10, then we do I guess cause there is nobody out there who can get us multiple bids. But lets be honest, none of our parent schools would either if they were the schools looking to join. Again we'll have some opportunities for multiple bids, but it will be based solely on the strength of individual schedules and wins in the non-con, not the conference.


And if you add programs that are capable of getting at large bids, the greater the chance you will have getting multiple bids. Just need to hit in the non-conference.

This was a 2 bid conference in 2015 and 2016. Heck, if ISUr doesn't blow an 18 point lead in 2015, it would have been a 3 bid conference. Losing WSU hurts, but way too much doom and gloom about ISUr not getting a bid.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby mvfcfan » August 16th, 2017, 10:19 pm

rally wrote:
Potential. As mentioned before, NKU has great facilities and is located in hotbed for college hoops. Making the NCAA tourney in their first year eligible isn't what draws me to them, but it does make me a little more optimistic on reaching their potential. But that's really it.

The Valley really doesn't have any great options. If we expand past 10, you want someone who can elevate the conference, not just blend in. Most of the schools listed have just been mediocre and I don't expect that to all of sudden just change. ORU has been to 5 NCAA tournaments in 40+ years as a D1 program. I really don't see them doing much more than blending in. At this level, expansion is all about men's basketball and getting multiple bids. That's where the money can be made. Success in non-revenue sports matter very little, if at all.

Currently, I only see Murray State as someone worth expanding the conference. I'd take them as a #11 team and call it a day. But if you want to pick #12 today, I picking a program with upside and right now that would be NKU.


Not saying I disagree with NKU's potential, but I find it extremely questionable. If you were to drop Northern Kentucky in the MVC today with Murray State they would rank 12th on their budget and they would rank 11th in attendance. If you were to drop Oral Roberts in the conference today with Murray State, ORU would rank 5th on their budget and they would rank 9th in attendance. In fact ORU ranks ahead of Murray State in both categories. Oral Roberts may be down right now, but they're definitely spending more money on basketball and they definitely have a larger fan base than NKU.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby uniftw » August 17th, 2017, 6:36 am

mvfcfan wrote:Not saying I disagree with NKU's potential, but I find it extremely questionable. If you were to drop Northern Kentucky in the MVC today with Murray State they would rank 12th on their budget and they would rank 11th in attendance. If you were to drop Oral Roberts in the conference today with Murray State, ORU would rank 5th on their budget and they would rank 9th in attendance. In fact ORU ranks ahead of Murray State in both categories. Oral Roberts may be down right now, but they're definitely spending more money on basketball and they definitely have a larger fan base than NKU.

Bradley is first in MVC basketball budgets
Evansville third
Loyola 4th
Valpo 5th
Drake 6th

UNI is the only public school in the top half of spending - 2nd

Each schools average finish since Loyola joined the league
Illinois State - 2.5
Northern IA - 3
Indiana State- 5
Southern IL - 5
Evansville - 5.75
Missouri St - 6
Loyola - 7.25
Bradley - 8
Drake - 8.5

Spending clearly isn't equaling results.

ORU is a freaking dumpster fire in the Summit and that's outspending everyone, except Denver. That's with them literally doubling (at least) everyone in the conference in budget except Denver and IUPUI....who is no longer there.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby rally » August 17th, 2017, 7:49 am

mvfcfan wrote:
rally wrote:
Potential. As mentioned before, NKU has great facilities and is located in hotbed for college hoops. Making the NCAA tourney in their first year eligible isn't what draws me to them, but it does make me a little more optimistic on reaching their potential. But that's really it.

The Valley really doesn't have any great options. If we expand past 10, you want someone who can elevate the conference, not just blend in. Most of the schools listed have just been mediocre and I don't expect that to all of sudden just change. ORU has been to 5 NCAA tournaments in 40+ years as a D1 program. I really don't see them doing much more than blending in. At this level, expansion is all about men's basketball and getting multiple bids. That's where the money can be made. Success in non-revenue sports matter very little, if at all.

Currently, I only see Murray State as someone worth expanding the conference. I'd take them as a #11 team and call it a day. But if you want to pick #12 today, I picking a program with upside and right now that would be NKU.


Not saying I disagree with NKU's potential, but I find it extremely questionable. If you were to drop Northern Kentucky in the MVC today with Murray State they would rank 12th on their budget and they would rank 11th in attendance. If you were to drop Oral Roberts in the conference today with Murray State, ORU would rank 5th on their budget and they would rank 9th in attendance. In fact ORU ranks ahead of Murray State in both categories. Oral Roberts may be down right now, but they're definitely spending more money on basketball and they definitely have a larger fan base than NKU.


ORU's attendance dropped for the 5th consecutive year to 2,827.
NKU's attendance increased for the 3rd straight year to 2,824.

ORU has to spend more on travel. The closest school to them is about the same distance as farthest school from NKU in the Horizon. Same with Murray in the OVC. The Horizon and OVC are essentially bus leagues. I'm interested to see how NKU's spending stacks up now that they are fully D1 and eligible for NCAA tourney.

There still a lot of unknowns about NKU, so I can understand there is going by some difference in opinion on their potential. I don't think the MVC is in hurry to go to 12, so there will be time to evaluate them.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby Redbirds4Life » August 17th, 2017, 11:56 am

Of the teams that would actually come....

UW-Milwaukee

and

Belmont

*I will take the teams from the bigger cities.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby RacerJoeD » August 17th, 2017, 12:35 pm

Redbirds4Life wrote:Of the teams that would actually come....

UW-Milwaukee

and

Belmont

*I will take the teams from the bigger cities.



I don't think I understand
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby MissouriValleyUnite » August 17th, 2017, 12:44 pm

I will take the teams that win.

29 consecutive winning seasons
2 NCAA Tourney wins this decade
2 regular season top 25 finishes this decade

In the coulda, woulda, shoulda category...
A point away from being the first 16 to knock off a 1 (Michigan St - lost in OT)
Kansas' toughest game (3 pts) en route to winning '88 national title
Butler's toughest game (2 pts) en route to '10 national title game

We could be talking about a Murray State program today with a final 4 run under its belt if they landed in another bracket in '88 or '10.

You guys talk about needing programs who help the conference contend for at-large bids? You got it. They've sustained that in the OVC for 30 years.

Also let me know if a non-mvc midwestern mid-major has contended for an at-large this decade. 2012 Oral Roberts had one sewn up until St Bonavenuture upset a ranked Xavier right before the selection show.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby Redbirds4Life » August 17th, 2017, 1:56 pm

RacerJoeD wrote:
Redbirds4Life wrote:Of the teams that would actually come....

UW-Milwaukee

and

Belmont

*I will take the teams from the bigger cities.



I don't think I understand


My point is to take the teams from the bigger cities. Nashville and Milwaukee. I'm sure most of you have an argument around Oral Roberts, or Murray State being better options. There are plenty of programs who have had success and made the tourney and won games, etc, but I would be more interested in expanding the reach of your league to new markets.

Realistically, it doesn't matter all that much, there are no game changers out there. Losing Creighton knocked the league down a peg and losing Wichita State, knocked it down another. The Valley is a long way from getting back to what it once was. I hope it does one day, but I don't see that coming any time soon.
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Re: If we go to 12 who do you want (choose 2) poll?

Postby RacerJoeD » August 17th, 2017, 5:00 pm

So program stability and success is less important than City size? So preferentially go for teams like St Peter's Peacocks, Fordham Rams or Chicago State? Or like Omaha or UMKC?
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