Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Discuss the MVC hoops season here.

Choose two: Who do you think the MVC should add?

Murray State
50
49%
Northern Kentucky
19
19%
UW-Milwaukee
6
6%
Oakland
0
No votes
South Dakota State
3
3%
Southeast Missouri State
0
No votes
Belmont
12
12%
Grand Canyon
3
3%
UT-Arlington
5
5%
Denver
4
4%
 
Total votes : 102

Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby bleach » January 8th, 2018, 6:48 pm

Look, a teams future potential is worth nothing until realized. WHO is gonna gobble up NKU or for that matter Murray if we don't?
Adding teams that don't raise the current level of the conference just water down the payout to current schools.
I actually like both schools but neither raise the current value. Unless it is a SLU, Dayton, VCU, etc., it is not profitable. I just don't get the value of adding more schools to a usually one bid league. I can see where these teams could win our bid but fail to see multiple bids by adding these teams.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby MissouriValleyUnite » January 8th, 2018, 7:07 pm

^ That’s the same argument people used against Butler 10 years ago. They then went to 2 ncaa title games and were snatched up by the A10 and Big East.

Murray State adds value whether it’s contending for at-large bids (2012, 2015) or winning NCAA games to add to a league’s credits (2010, 2012) or travelling to Arch Madness (they outnumber the entire OVC combined in Nashville). Don’t forget if they hadn’t run into the national champion (Kansas) or runnerup (Butler) or a 1 seed (Michigan St in OT) in one possession losses, they’d have even deeper runs in their history. Keep in mind they lose out on top end recruits because of the OVC so their talent level should increase in the MVC to reach these levels again.

Last time we didn’t add a school right under our nose that would raise the value of the league, it burned us. Let’s not make that same mistake again.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby bleach » January 9th, 2018, 3:43 pm

MissouriValleyUnite wrote:^ That’s the same argument people used against Butler 10 years ago. They then went to 2 ncaa title games and were snatched up by the A10 and Big East.

Murray State adds value whether it’s contending for at-large bids (2012, 2015) or winning NCAA games to add to a league’s credits (2010, 2012) or travelling to Arch Madness (they outnumber the entire OVC combined in Nashville). Don’t forget if they hadn’t run into the national champion (Kansas) or runnerup (Butler) or a 1 seed (Michigan St in OT) in one possession losses, they’d have even deeper runs in their history. Keep in mind they lose out on top end recruits because of the OVC so their talent level should increase in the MVC to reach these levels again.

Last time we didn’t add a school right under our nose that would raise the value of the league, it burned us. Let’s not make that same mistake again.

I was unaware Butler wanted in the MVC. Never would have opposed that. Can you provide some info on this?
I also see value in Murray but nobody else. If it must be a 2 for, I don't see that much value in Murray.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby mvfcfan » January 9th, 2018, 4:46 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... caa-money/

If I'm reading this right, since payouts are made every year for 6 years, I think the MVC is getting around $1.67M each year anyways for just 1 bid that loses in the first round. So divide that by 10 and you get $167,000 per school. Divide that by 12 and you get $139,166. That's a $28,000 difference which really isn't that much of a difference. I think some on here are way too concerned with tournament revenue. Adding a solid school like Murray State and another school that is on the rise like NKU is a very small risk (barely any added travel, not really losing any money), with the potential of being a really big gain if we could ever become a multi-bid league again.

If I'm reading that wrong, please correct me, but that's how I understood it anyways.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby bufan741777 » January 9th, 2018, 5:14 pm

mvfcfan wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/sports/ncaa-money/

If I'm reading this right, since payouts are made every year for 6 years, I think the MVC is getting around $1.67M each year anyways for just 1 bid that loses in the first round. So divide that by 10 and you get $167,000 per school. Divide that by 12 and you get $139,166. That's a $28,000 difference which really isn't that much of a difference. I think some on here are way too concerned with tournament revenue. Adding a solid school like Murray State and another school that is on the rise like NKU is a very small risk (barely any added travel, not really losing any money), with the potential of being a really big gain if we could ever become a multi-bid league again.

If I'm reading that wrong, please correct me, but that's how I understood it anyways.


You are correct to my understanding. People just feel that more schools will loose us money. If those schools help the Valley to get even one extra bid every 5-8 years that would be a positive. That's not even counting if they win a game!
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby VUGrad1314 » January 9th, 2018, 7:35 pm

Those who are dismissing Northern Kentucky because their potential and market are still their main selling points are missing an important point: This isn't like adding 2013 Loyola or the current versions of UIC Milwaukee SLU or GCU and praying that resources market size and an expanded or renewed commitment to athletics spending might make them a creditable addition in the next five years. This is a program that has succeeded at every level it's played at for decades (SLU and Milwaukee can't say that) and has already shown the ability to challenge P5\AAC level teams WITHOUT MVC level talent. Imagine what they could do WITH it. NKU with MVC level talent would be as good or better than Murray State is now or even as good as any MVC team not named Wichita State has been over the last 10-12 years. In addition, they draw extremely well even for crappy opponents (Belmont and Milwaukee can't say that although Belmont's attendance is okay). On top of all this, they're suitable as a travel partner for Murray State without disrupting the existing pairings. We are sitting on two top quality additions that appear to have the ability to become leading members of this conference in short order and to restore desperately sought after multibid status and some of you are complaining because the wrapping paper on this gift isn't pretty enough. At least open the box and look inside. Would you rather see a conference like the OVC get smart and try to snatch NKU (which might be possible given the collapse of the Horizon League) so that we lose out on Belmont NKU AND Murray State? The time to act is now people. We finally have a program with the makings of a solid 12th member. So let's go.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby Chuck_A » January 9th, 2018, 7:58 pm

Collapse of the Horizon League?! Come on VUGrad1314. I realize a disdain for something can make one see something where there is nothing, but...really?
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby VUGrad1314 » January 9th, 2018, 8:22 pm

Chuck_A wrote:Collapse of the Horizon League?! Come on VUGrad1314. I realize a disdain for something can make one see something where there is nothing, but...really?


Disdain has nothing to do with it. In fact I find it sad and something to be pitied that a league I grew up watching and enjoying as a kid and was happy to see my school become a part of ten years ago has fallen so low. It used to be MVC lite, now it struggles year in and year out to keep up with the Summit League--the conference Valpo left to join the Horizon League. I could have used the word decline but I don't feel that word does the situation justice. When you go from taking the best members of a league as you did with Valpo and Oakland to getting lapped and dunked on by that same league that is much more than garden variety decline. What would you call a fall from the 12-17 range all the way to the bottom 5-7 conferences of the country with half the league's teams south of 275 in KenPom if not a collapse?
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby Chuck_A » January 9th, 2018, 9:24 pm

VUGrad1314 wrote:
Chuck_A wrote:Collapse of the Horizon League?! Come on VUGrad1314. I realize a disdain for something can make one see something where there is nothing, but...really?


Disdain has nothing to do with it. In fact I find it sad and something to be pitied that a league I grew up watching and enjoying as a kid and was happy to see my school become a part of ten years ago has fallen so low. It used to be MVC lite, now it struggles year in and year out to keep up with the Summit League--the conference Valpo left to join the Horizon League. I could have used the word decline but I don't feel that word does the situation justice. When you go from taking the best members of a league as you did with Valpo and Oakland to getting lapped and dunked on by that same league that is much more than garden variety decline. What would you call a fall from the 12-17 range all the way to the bottom 5-7 conferences of the country with half the league's teams south of 275 in KenPom if not a collapse?


You know what, you are indeed correct. My thinking of the word you used brings thoughts of a disbanding because the collapse was so severe (as in a building collapse or a bridge collapse) that nothing remained but ruins. But then again, some would say the HL "IS" in ruins. I understand where you're coming from. My apologies.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby Dean Wormer » January 10th, 2018, 12:31 am

bleach wrote:
MissouriValleyUnite wrote:^ That’s the same argument people used against Butler 10 years ago. They then went to 2 ncaa title games and were snatched up by the A10 and Big East.

Murray State adds value whether it’s contending for at-large bids (2012, 2015) or winning NCAA games to add to a league’s credits (2010, 2012) or travelling to Arch Madness (they outnumber the entire OVC combined in Nashville). Don’t forget if they hadn’t run into the national champion (Kansas) or runnerup (Butler) or a 1 seed (Michigan St in OT) in one possession losses, they’d have even deeper runs in their history. Keep in mind they lose out on top end recruits because of the OVC so their talent level should increase in the MVC to reach these levels again.

Last time we didn’t add a school right under our nose that would raise the value of the league, it burned us. Let’s not make that same mistake again.

I was unaware Butler wanted in the MVC. Never would have opposed that. Can you provide some info on this?
I also see value in Murray but nobody else. If it must be a 2 for, I don't see that much value in Murray.


I think he is referring to the fact that after Butler started making some NCAA appearances, it was several years before they left the Horizon...why didn't we go after them during that time.

It has been heavily rumored that Butler did try to get in when Evansville did during the MCC implosion. It would make sense if they did, as everyone else was jumping ship during that time. What these people don't realize is Butler was horrific during that time. They were on a 30+ year NCAA tournament drought, finishing near the bottom of the MCC every year, and drawing less than 2,000 a game. If 1994 Butler applied now, there isn't a poster on here that would be in favor of adding them. Quite simply, Butler made themselves by remaining in a significantly weakend Horizon, and was able to compete. By getting the auto-bid frequently, they were able to catch lightning in a bottle, and make those improbable runs to the finals.

The assumption Butler would have been what they are now in the MVC is not valid. I am sure had they been in the MVC during the early 2000's, they would have finished mid-pack at best against those Creighton and SIU teams.

With that in mind, I get the feeling Belmont understands this. Why go to the MVC, increase your competition day in and out, and get nothing for it? Stay in the OVC, and in most seasons, only have Murray in your way.

I have no problem with Murray, but that is about it. They are the only school that actually fits, and brings any type of tradition or history with them. Either take them and work out 11, or stay where we are, and work on improving the 10 we have to start earning multiple bids. Until we do that, adding schools for the sake of adding, only makes that 1 bid less attractive. Some on here act like if we don't go to 12, we will implode. The 10 we have is the most stable we have had in years. The only way I see things changing anytime soon is if there is some type of public/private split, and in the remote chance that happens, being at 10 or 12 will not make a difference.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby jacksfan29 » January 10th, 2018, 4:00 pm

NKU, another school, like Grand Canyon that hasn't done anything. At least they have an RPI in the 100s,
but if I had to place a bet, they will not win the HL this season. Nagy and Wright State are getting better every week. I expect WSU to run away with it.

By the way, the "inconsistent Dakota" school, as I have seen you state, SDSU is sitting at 69 RPI with no bad losses and two top 100 wins. NMSU, 59 with one top 100 win and no bad losses. Belmont, 86 with two top 100 wins and one bad loss (JSU). Plus, with SDSU and NMSU, you get two Women's programs sitting top 50 RPI.

Their are strong BB schools out there that the MVC could go after, NKU may be one in the future, or they may not be. Just like GCU, they have proven nothing yet. If it is a Horizon League team you want, if Nagy stays, Wright State will be a RPI 100 team year in and year out. Go for it, but at least be like some others who actually think through who they really want based on quality, not a wish that they "might" be solid in the future.

VUGrad1314 wrote:Those who are dismissing Northern Kentucky because their potential and market are still their main selling points are missing an important point: This isn't like adding 2013 Loyola or the current versions of UIC Milwaukee SLU or GCU and praying that resources market size and an expanded or renewed commitment to athletics spending might make them a creditable addition in the next five years. This is a program that has succeeded at every level it's played at for decades (SLU and Milwaukee can't say that) and has already shown the ability to challenge P5\AAC level teams WITHOUT MVC level talent. Imagine what they could do WITH it. NKU with MVC level talent would be as good or better than Murray State is now or even as good as any MVC team not named Wichita State has been over the last 10-12 years. In addition, they draw extremely well even for crappy opponents (Belmont and Milwaukee can't say that although Belmont's attendance is okay). On top of all this, they're suitable as a travel partner for Murray State without disrupting the existing pairings. We are sitting on two top quality additions that appear to have the ability to become leading members of this conference in short order and to restore desperately sought after multibid status and some of you are complaining because the wrapping paper on this gift isn't pretty enough. At least open the box and look inside. Would you rather see a conference like the OVC get smart and try to snatch NKU (which might be possible given the collapse of the Horizon League) so that we lose out on Belmont NKU AND Murray State? The time to act is now people. We finally have a program with the makings of a solid 12th member. So let's go.
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Re: Updated 1/6/18: MVC Expansion Poll

Postby bufan741777 » January 10th, 2018, 4:33 pm

jacksfan29 wrote:NKU, another school, like Grand Canyon that hasn't done anything. At least they have an RPI in the 100s,
but if I had to place a bet, they will not win the HL this season. Nagy and Wright State are getting better every week. I expect WSU to run away with it.

By the way, the "inconsistent Dakota" school, as I have seen you state, SDSU is sitting at 69 RPI with no bad losses and two top 100 wins. NMSU, 59 with one top 100 win and no bad losses. Belmont, 86 with two top 100 wins and one bad loss (JSU). Plus, with SDSU and NMSU, you get two Women's programs sitting top 50 RPI.

Their are strong BB schools out there that the MVC could go after, NKU may be one in the future, or they may not be. Just like GCU, they have proven nothing yet. If it is a Horizon League team you want, if Nagy stays, Wright State will be a RPI 100 team year in and year out. Go for it, but at least be like some others who actually think through who they really want based on quality, not a wish that they "might" be solid in the future.

VUGrad1314 wrote:Those who are dismissing Northern Kentucky because their potential and market are still their main selling points are missing an important point: This isn't like adding 2013 Loyola or the current versions of UIC Milwaukee SLU or GCU and praying that resources market size and an expanded or renewed commitment to athletics spending might make them a creditable addition in the next five years. This is a program that has succeeded at every level it's played at for decades (SLU and Milwaukee can't say that) and has already shown the ability to challenge P5\AAC level teams WITHOUT MVC level talent. Imagine what they could do WITH it. NKU with MVC level talent would be as good or better than Murray State is now or even as good as any MVC team not named Wichita State has been over the last 10-12 years. In addition, they draw extremely well even for crappy opponents (Belmont and Milwaukee can't say that although Belmont's attendance is okay). On top of all this, they're suitable as a travel partner for Murray State without disrupting the existing pairings. We are sitting on two top quality additions that appear to have the ability to become leading members of this conference in short order and to restore desperately sought after multibid status and some of you are complaining because the wrapping paper on this gift isn't pretty enough. At least open the box and look inside. Would you rather see a conference like the OVC get smart and try to snatch NKU (which might be possible given the collapse of the Horizon League) so that we lose out on Belmont NKU AND Murray State? The time to act is now people. We finally have a program with the makings of a solid 12th member. So let's go.


You put quotes around inconsistent Dakota school and then went on to talk only about this season. Consistency is found over many years in a program. Not a snapshot of 70% of a season. You have been to the big dance 4 times in the last 6 seasons because, well your in the Summit. Not to mention having a ridiculous home court tournament. I have gone to the Summit Men's and Women's basketball tournament twice in the last 4 seasons. The amount of loud, and for some reason normally angry, SDSU fans overshadows most schools. In NCAA games your 0-4. 1-1 in NIT play. 0-1 in CBI play. Women's team is 2-7 in the big dance.

The men's team is consistently a .500 - .725 team with a SOS that is not great. This year is literally the biggest difference. That is not a team that consistently plays like you are this year.

SOS by season
2018 +2.11
2017 -.66
2016 -1.22
2015 -3.23
2014 -1.93
2013 -3.27
2012 -1.87
2011 -4.04
2010 -5.05
2009 -1.45

Not to mention you can't win one game against a high level team. You played 5 teams with RPIs 100 or better. You lost all 5 of those games. I am not saying you would be an awful team for the Valley. You are just talking about how good you look when your only discussing a 15 game stretch, not the program as a whole.
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