Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Cdizzle » January 11th, 2017, 1:24 pm

hot nuts wrote:
Cdizzle wrote:Making the finals of a tournament of valley teams does not qualify one as a "good" team.


Would you accept, relevant? At least MVC relevant?

I'm not really referencing ISU specifically with my above comments. Getting to the finals in St. Louis can involve beating 2 teams of questionable quality. It doesn't mean you suck, but that alone is a tremendously weak argument to be a 'good' team.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby specialsauce » January 11th, 2017, 1:47 pm

Cdizzle wrote:Making the finals of a tournament of valley teams does not qualify one as a "good" team.


Agreed. Conference tourney smack is pretty weak. It's not a good place to hang your hat on.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Redbirdgrad » January 11th, 2017, 1:49 pm

Cdizzle wrote:Getting to the finals in St. Louis can involve beating 2 teams of questionable quality. It doesn't mean you suck, but that alone is a tremendously weak argument to be a 'good' team.


2014-2015 - defeated Evansville, #8 Ranked Wichita State http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400766594

2012-2013 - defeated Northern Iowa, #15 Ranked Wichita State
http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/320632724

2008-2009 - defeated Evansville, Creighton (26-7)
http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/290660156

2007-2008 - defeated Missouri State, Northern Iowa
http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/280682287

Can understand your point Cdizzle, but from the Birds history in making runs at these tourneys, we've always played someone pretty good in that 2nd game... You guys twice, while ranked nationally. A very solid Creighton team in 2008-2009. You have to go back to the 2007-2008 Northern Iowa team that was seeded 6th to find a game that wasn't a tough match-up to make your claim correct.


In the state of the current Valley? No, a Saturday win isn't anything to write home about (usually). But when you look back 10 years... there were some pretty good games and competition coming out of those semifinal games.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby BirdsEyeView » January 11th, 2017, 1:56 pm

Nitpicking here Wichita guys.

It's impossible to measure what is considered a good vs great vs average vs bad team. I would consider us to be good, but not good enough team in all of those years.

Your opinions are skewed towards your own perceptions stemming from undefeated seasons, Final Fours, constant NCAA Tournaments. You guys would be considered "great" mid-major teams in those years.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Cdizzle » January 11th, 2017, 1:57 pm

I mean, is 2 games a 'run?'

I'm not trying to remove credit from those wins. I just think they are what they are; good, singular wins. They are good enough wins to help make the case that a team is of good quality. But you have to be wiling to put your blinders on and not look at the rest of the season, and question a bunch of losses the Indiana St., Murray St. etc.

I'm trying to remain generic here and not direct my comments directly towards ISU. I mean them to apply generally across the board.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Cdizzle » January 11th, 2017, 2:03 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:Nitpicking here Wichita guys.

It's impossible to measure what is considered a good vs great vs average vs bad team. I would consider us to be good, but not good enough team in all of those years.

Your opinions are skewed towards your own perceptions stemming from undefeated seasons, Final Fours, constant NCAA Tournaments. You guys would be considered "great" mid-major teams in those years.

Those were 'great' teams period, except for December-February of 2012-2013. That team was pretty average.

I would propose it's not really impossible to measure, but that you are correct we are arguing semantics over a rating scale we haven't even calibrated.

Back to the thread....

Interesting week. WSU and ISUr both play teams that they should beat, but that are definitely good enough to beat them without needing a friggin' miracle. All while having the potentially big conference race matchup this weekend. Will be a good test to see which teams can keep focused, and a good measuring stick for SIU and LUC as well.
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby BirdsEyeView » January 11th, 2017, 2:07 pm

Cdizzle wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:Nitpicking here Wichita guys.

It's impossible to measure what is considered a good vs great vs average vs bad team. I would consider us to be good, but not good enough team in all of those years.

Your opinions are skewed towards your own perceptions stemming from undefeated seasons, Final Fours, constant NCAA Tournaments. You guys would be considered "great" mid-major teams in those years.

Those were 'great' teams period, except for December-February of 2012-2013. That team was pretty average.

I would propose it's not really impossible to measure, but that you are correct we are arguing semantics over a rating scale we haven't even calibrated.

Back to the thread....

Interesting week. WSU and ISUr both play teams that they should beat, but that are definitely good enough to beat them without needing a friggin' miracle. All while having the potentially big conference race matchup this weekend. Will be a good test to see which teams can keep focused, and a good measuring stick for SIU and LUC as well.


:+1:
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Redbirdgrad » January 11th, 2017, 2:08 pm

Cdizzle wrote:I mean, is 2 games a 'run?'

I'm not trying to remove credit from those wins. I just think they are what they are; good, singular wins. They are good enough wins to help make the case that a team is of good quality. But you have to be wiling to put your blinders on and not look at the rest of the season, and question a bunch of losses the Indiana St., Murray St. etc.

I'm trying to remain generic here and not direct my comments directly towards ISU. I mean them to apply generally across the board.


It is when your coach struggles to get out of Saturday games in St. Louis... ahem... :)

:Cheers:

You made a statement that getting to the MVC finals didn't necessarily mean you were a good team because of the competition you faced on Friday and Saturday. I showed you where in our history, it actually did mean the team we had was pretty good, especially pointing out where we had to beat two solid Wichita teams on Saturday in order to get to the final.

Let's both take care of business tonight though and get to Saturday!!!
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Cdizzle » January 11th, 2017, 2:13 pm

Redbirdgrad wrote:It is when your coach struggles to get out of Saturday games in St. Louis... ahem... :)
:Cheers:

As much crap as Marshall and WSU get for flailing in St. Louis (and somewhat deservedly so, I get it), there is only one coach in the league with more MVC Tourney titles, and 7 with less. I think the ISUr NCAA tournament record *cough* during that time would indicate they are probably among those programs with coaches in the "less" category.

:Cheers:
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Re: Wed, Jan 11th. 5th MVC Game

Postby Redbirdgrad » January 11th, 2017, 2:18 pm

Cdizzle wrote:
Redbirdgrad wrote:It is when your coach struggles to get out of Saturday games in St. Louis... ahem... :)
:Cheers:

As much crap as Marshall and WSU get for flailing in St. Louis (and somewhat deservedly so, I get it), there is only one coach in the league with more MVC Tourney titles, and 7 with less. I think the ISUr NCAA tournament record *cough* during that time would indicate they are probably among those programs with coaches in the "less" category.

:Cheers:


And here we go with changing the argument because the original one is lost by a Shocker!

Yes, we've VASTLY under-performed under past and current coaching staffs. No Illinois State fan will disagree with you at all there. Here's to hoping that trend is over!
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